The Phenomenon

Hello everyone, and welcome back. I am so very excited to share this particular episode with you. In my podcast and in my Facebook group, I have never made any secret of the fact that I have had ET or Star People encounters my entire life. I have shared in this podcast and in others where I have been interviewed, snippets of my experiences here and there. I’ve never been shy about talking about what I have been a part of – along with countless others throughout the world. So UFO’s, encounters, and abductions have always been a passion of mine. It’s been a part of my knowing since I was a child – and part of the reason I started this podcast to begin with. To help share information and knowledge about life that exists outside of this reality that we are all currently aware of and knowing about.

So I do keep an eye out for what is, and more importantly, isn’t put out into all forms of media about this subject, and all associated areas. So when I first heard of the new documentary movie released by the director James Fox, and heard so many good comments about it – I simply had to watch it myself. To see for myself if it lived up to its hype. Well, I have to say – and it’s not often that I do say this about documentaries like this- that this one exceeded my expectations. I was so impressed with it and with the point that James simply presents the facts and lets you, the viewer, make up your own mind – although the evidence is pretty clear to see for those with open eyes and open minds.

So, taking a huge leap of faith, I worked very hard to find contact details for James and sent him an email asking if he would be interested in talking with us all about this movie and what brought it about. Also, whatever else that he might want to share. To be honest, I didn’t expect a response; after all, who am I in the grand scheme of things, merely a small podcaster. This episode is the result of that email. And so, as always, the question is, are you willing to walk with me into this part of the shadowlands and see what awaits us there? Then let’s begin.

My guest is fairly well known throughout the world. Especially in UFO circles. English-born, but raised in the USA, James began his career as a documentary filmmaker in his twenties, after travelling the world assisting his father, who was a respected journalist. He has already created a number of UFO-related movies that he is well known for.

Starting in nineteen-ninety-seven with the documentary ‘UFOs: 50 Years of Denial?’ Followed in two thousand and three with the Documentary movie ‘Out of the Blue’. Then in two thousand and nine with the TV movie documentary ‘I Know What I Saw’, and with a re-released and updated version of it called ‘I Know What I Saw: Director’s Cut’ in twenty-fourteen. Finally, this year, with the release of his tremendously successful and popular ‘The Phenomenon’. Which, since its release in October twenty-twenty, has remained number one in the top rankings for documentary movies. A testament to the fact that people want to know the truth, wanting to know that we are not alone in the universe, and this movie certainly fulfils that need, in my opinion.

Before I start this conversation with my wonderful guest James Fox, I am going to begin with a quote from Christopher Mellon. Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations and later for Security and Information Operations. He formerly served as the Staff Director of the United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. So this is a man in the know.

“Everything that we know and have learned about mankind and its place in the universe suggests that we are part of the norm. We are not the exception.”

MARIANNE

James, thank you so very much for joining us today. Perhaps we could start with you telling us about how you got into documentary filmmaking? And specifically, how you got into the area of UFO documentaries?

JAMES

Well, thank you for having me on the show. That would take us back to the early nineteen-nineties. Where I had a father who was paralysed from the neck down with multiple sclerosis, and he was a writer.  And so I’ve been travelling –  oh, he was a fantastic, hilarious, driven, ambitious, intelligent, witty, great, fun guy. We travelled the world together. I was his legs, his chauffeur, his secretary, his nurse. We had a lot of fun. We interviewed Stephen Hawking. We interviewed race car legend Dan Gurney. We travelled to Formula One races down in Mexico City.

I mean, we did some really cool stuff. And my dad, my father, was a brilliant writer. I was always amazed at how he could put words together, and so good at it got such a skill. And I had picked up, probably in the late eighties, very early nineties, certainly the late eighties, early nineties, a video camera from a friend of mine. And I was so amazed at the technology of just the instant, you know –

It was tape back then. But the video, the instant playback, it’s like, you know, it was amazing. It was a real novelty back then, and what a great tool it was for documenting things. And so I started doing video production, you know, probably in my very early twenties and probably I don’t know. I want to say when I was around twenty-three, twenty-four, a very good high school friend of mine, one of my best friends, one of my best mates. We bought a car in London – and we flew to Europe from America, and we bought a car in London. And we drove this old Fiat one thirty-one. We painted the doors red. Paid two hundred pounds for it.

We drove it all the way to Portugal and had just had a hell of an adventure together. And the car didn’t make it out of Portugal, and [we had to] take a bus back. But it was a good friend of mine, this guy Renee. And he started to tell me back in the US about UFOs. And one of my best friends, honestly, and I had –  he didn’t talk to me about it in high school, but he talked to me about it later in our early twenties. And I thought he’d lost his mind. I really did.  He was talking about Roswell in particular. You haven’t heard about Roswell? You know?  And I just thought, well, he’s been a good friend, and I’m gonna have to write him off, and he’s lost his mind.

And I was telling the story to a mentor of mine. I was apprenticing in a video production house in San Francisco, Ellison Horn Production, something like this. And this guy, Richard Van Sickle, was one of the senior people at the production house. He’s a brilliant guy. I really looked up to him, and I just one day told him, oh, you’re not going to believe it. A really good friend of mine was telling me about UFOs and then about how a UFO crashed, and aliens were recovered in Roswell back in the forties. I said, God, my poor friend, he’s lost his mind. And Richard turned to me, and he says, Oh, no, you haven’t heard about that? And I said, what do you mean I haven’t heard of it? No, I haven’t heard.

He goes, oh yeah, that fully happened. He said they actually admitted that it happened. And I thought, well, hang on a minute. Like, Richard is someone that I look up to, and I respect; he’s very intelligent. And he runs his video production company. And I thought, well, Richard thinks it happened; maybe I should take a closer look. And so I did. And I went to a couple of conferences, and I befriended some military guys. Basically exchanged, offered an exchange of documenting them and make, you know, their interviews available to the public.  And documenting presentations and things of that nature. And in exchange, they kind of brought me into their world a bit. And then I think when I was twenty-four, maybe twenty-five, I said, hey, I’m going to do a documentary on UFOs.

And I was amazed at how – not unsupportive, my father was, because my father was incredibly supportive of everything I’ve done. He was the guy that would say, son, you know, if you ever want to do whatever it is in life, as long as you’re happy, if you want to be a garbage man or a teacher or, you know, I just as long as you’re happy, that’s all that matters in life. And he was that guy. And yet, he was so opposed to me doing a documentary on UFO’s. I mean, he was begging me not to do it. He used things like, you’re going down a one-way street.  It’s a dead end; there’s nothing to it. It’s a waste of your life. And he even had other members of the family who actually lived in Australia and England and France and Italy and even Singapore, writing letters and telling me to reconsider. And your father was very concerned about this kind of thing. And of course, being a Taurus, I thought, well, you know, I’ll prove this guy’s wrong. And I think it was actually just what I needed because I didn’t realise how difficult it was to, you know, to shoot a documentary and edit and write. And that’s a lot of work.

MARIANNE

It’s a lot of work.

JAMES

I mean, it took me four and a half years. But I did it, and I sold it to Discovery Channel. And, you know, it was moderately successful. For the time, it was beautifully received. I, I eventually got invited to go to Russia because of it. And I sort of got the last laugh, really, you know, and people sort of stood back and thought, well, hang on a second. I wouldn’t say I had the full attention of the family, but they were OK. Wow. And I thought, that’s the last UFO doc I ever do. You know, that was hell, you know, and since then, I’ve learned never to say never. You know, that’s because I’m on my own. I just finished my fourth and a half film on the topic. So all twenty-seven years later. . .

MARIANNE

Oh that’s funny. Why do you –  Oh yeah, never say never.  That’s absolutely a true saying, because something always comes up, doesn’t it?

JAMES

Oh my gosh. Yes. You know, that’s the thing. It’s like I got invited to Russia. And it was funny, actually, because something I don’t really share that often, but I was – and if I’m rambling, just cut me off.

MARIANNE

That’s ok.

JAMES

But I think I was selling copies. It was when Art Bell was doing, was at the peak of Art Bell’s show,

MARIANNE

Ah, the King.

JAMES

Yes. And we got featured a little bit on our bell and we were selling, which would have been VHS tapes, I’m assuming. Don’t think the DVDs were popular back then. I’m get I’m going to say VHS tapes. And I was selling VHS tapes of the film as well. I maintain home video distribution rights.  So I could do that on my own and make extra money from the Discovery Channel sale, which I was doing. And I got a letter back from a gentleman who very kindly said, hey, I bought one of your tapes, and it arrived at my house, broken. His name was Joe Belardi and I, and he said, would you mind terribly sending me another one? And I said, of course.

I wrote him a letter, and I thanked him so much for his support. And I said, Here’s your money back for the inconvenience; here’s your postage back. Here are two tapes, one for you. And please feel free to pass another one on to a friend of yours. Oh, and, and, you know, thank you. And that was it. And about three weeks later, I kid you not! I never met this guy. He sent me a check for twenty thousand dollars. And he said, I like the way you operate. I like what you’re doing; I’m a wealthy man and I –  don’t stop.

And yeah, then I got invited to Russia, and that was –  that paid my way to Russia. And then I started shooting generals – and they thought I was Fox from Fox News. So I had all this, like, military escorts. I kid you. I’m not kidding you. If you ever watch Out of the Blue, you’ll see some in there. And when I got home from Russia, I said, well, I guess I’m doing another film on the topic. I didn’t mean to, but how could I not? These opportunities are presenting themselves. And that was the birth of Out Of The Blue.

MARIANNE

Wow, that’s amazing. No, there’s a saying that I really, really like, and that’s what comes from the heart, touches the heart. And obviously the fact that you went out of your way to send not one, but two in, and we found him his money, was, you know, that obviously touched him deeply.

JAMES

Yeah, well, I, you know, I treated him just like I would want anyone else. I mean, you know, my girlfriend at the time, it was really funny. I’ll never forget it. She was like, you know, you can’t afford to be giving stuff away. And I said, just stop. You know, just please, just stop. This is how I operate, and just, you know, and so when that check arrived, I kind of like looked at her, and I think she realised. But you know, but things like that happen. And there are really great people in the world that have made this effort possible. And I, you know, Jesus, I mean, there were times on many occasions where I was so broke, I couldn’t even barely afford to pay attention. And I have to keep pushing forward, you know.

MARIANNE

Right. I’ve never heard that saying before. Couldn’t afford to pay attention. Ah, that’s really funny. Can I go back to your Dad for a second, just a follow-on? Why do you feel that he was so not keen, not supportive about you doing UFO videos?

JAMES

You know, there was a campaign that started in the fifties, back in nineteen-fifty-three.

MARIANNE

Fifty-three, yeah.

JAMES

The Robertson channel of ridicule, right? Yeah, and that was a very effective campaign to discredit and ridicule the topic. And it was a very effective campaign and very effective. My dad was a mainstream journalist, so he was like, you know, this is nonsense. And he just never looked into it. I mean, most people quickly dismiss UFOs, myself included. I mean, I’m guilty of it as well.

It’s embedded in our psyche, you know, and it was an intentional thing that was done. A very effective campaign, and it stuck. And so anybody, you know, it’s like knee-jerk, you know, UFOs, [snaps fingers] crackpot! [snaps fingers] UFOs. I remember I dated this girl, Rachel, back in college.  And I was 18, and she was 19. And she said to me, ” Oh, my, my, my previous boyfriend was really into UFOs. And I just, I was like, urghh, well, what, you like what? I didn’t ask another question, like, what an idiot! How would you date that guy, you know? But isn’t that funny? I mean, I was totally, you know, that programming, or whatever it is, affected me too.

MARIANNE

Social manipulation at its finest, that’s a classic example. Did you find that you had –  When you when you started to make The Phenomenon, did you find that you had resistance from any area getting it right? Like what were the major hurdles that you had to overcome to make it?

JAMES

It was a nearly eight-year push, and I only recently, in the last couple of weeks, have been able to kind of breathe and reflect on the journey and how difficult it was. I shared this with other people. I have PTSD from this film. And, yeah, it was really, really intense. I mean, my God, there were some very dark, trying times. It’s the best way I can describe it is that –  first of all, anything you do that’s worthy of anything is incredibly difficult. And you have to remind yourself, if it were easy, it would have been done.  If it were easy, it would have been done already. And I’m pretty energetic and enthusiastic and, you know, stay, stay positive and nose to the grindstone. I like to enjoy myself and have fun, but I also work very, very hard.

And and this, this project. You say some of the hurdles. I mean, Jesus, where do you begin? I mean, it was a hurdle every single day. Some of them seemed insurmountable. There were times when people tried to shut me down, maybe out of jealousy. I don’t know. I had to go through many different funding rounds– ran out of money several times.

I became a dad at a time when things weren’t going particularly well with the film, and funds had dried up. And I had to switch partners and find new producers and new, new financial backing, and it’s incredibly challenging. And look, these things happen.  And especially with an independent production, you just have to keep pushing.  And you just don’t take no for an answer. And you’ve got to –  hate to say it- sell your vision. And you’d think it would be, you know, much easier considering it was my fourth and a half attempt, or project. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re on easy street at all. I mean, you know, you can be the flavour of the week, and then you’re – Doesn’t matter what you produced in the past.

MARIANNE

Yeah exactly.

JAMES

What were the challenges? Every possible challenge. Just even getting interviews at times, even when there were times when we had money- it was hard because trying to secure interviews.  People are quirky, you know, some people –  The whole thing was hard, and then you get to the end, and you’re exhausted. And you’ve asked, you’ve underestimated the budget and. New things come out, and you try to keep the project current. And at some point you have to say, look, this thing is done.  Like we’re done here.

And usually that happens once you’re out of money, but you can also just be out of juice. Just, you know, you just don’t have any more to push. And, you know, you got that last ten per cent is critical, because we had a version that was about two hours and twenty minutes, maybe?  Something like this.

Some people were like, oh, it’s awesome. And I knew inside, no, it’s not awesome. This thing needs to be trimmed. Trimmed right down, and that’s a pretty brutal process. But you got to keep pushing. Those end months are critical to film success, and make sure the audio is done properly. All the colour correction is done properly, you know, combing through every bit of narration. And weeding out anything that doesn’t belong, or anything that’s redundant. And it’s hard because you get connected to this stuff. So, yeah, anyway, you just got to keep pushing, and you can’t let up, you know, even when you’re exhausted, and you’re on all fours, and you’re barely walking. That last push is very critical, very critical. The film wouldn’t have been anywhere near as successful as it is now. Had we gone out with even the second or third cut. Yeah. So I hope I answered that question?

MARIANNE

You did. And that’s –  I can understand, because I actually –  well, I was a nurse for most of my work, and I had to leave it because of a work-related injury. So I retrained as a graphic designer and a computer and website designer. And one of the things that they really pushed on us when I was training, and it happened so many times. When you’re creating a project and you really love what you’ve done. But you look at it, and you have to throw the good cuts out. The bits that you think are good out, but actually they don’t need to be there. So, I totally get what you were saying about having to throw bits of your –  cut bits off your documentary.  It’s hard.

JAMES

I, I remember one time in particular what it took to assemble this whole historical segment and when it went –  not just to get there, not just to obtain the content, you know? But also putting it together and writing a narrative.  I mean, it was months, and months and months, and months, and months. We edited it for three and a half years.  And it had to go. One of my partners. This guy, Mark Burish, would jokingly say; James, it’s time to kill your darlings, you know? And he had to do it, and I had to do it.

But there was one time in particular, I’ll never forget it, where I highlighted it in the timeline, and I highlighted the whole section.  And all I had to do was hit the delete button, and it was poof. And I had to close my eyes and almost hold my breath.  And just quickly hit the delete button, because, it was it was like a gut punch, you know. But it was what was best for the film, and nobody misses it.

MARIANNE

Right. Right. So hard, though, because you put so much of your heart and soul into it. Now….

JAMES

I went to South America four times and not one second made it in.

MARIANNE

Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah, that’s a lot of, a lot of time and a lot of effort.

JAMES

I went to China. I went to China twice.  All across China, and maybe 30 seconds or a minute made it in at the end.

MARIANNE

Wow. Do you think with those bits that didn’t make it, do you think you might stitch those together some time for maybe a follow-on?

JAMES

Probably, probably, yeah

MARIANNE

‘Cause it’s….

JAMES

Yeah, sorry

MARIANNE

Sorry. ‘Cause it feels to me like so much love and energy and time went into it, that it’s such a shame to have wasted, when –

JAMES

Yeah, well, I’ve got a lot of people telling me, give me advice right now.  And I need to sort of step back and think about what’s best for The Phenomenon. And, and, you know, I, I want to make the right decision and – You know, but I love the idea of having, like, a YouTube channel, which I used to have actually, and just posting stuff for free on it. The stuff that ended up on the editing room floor. But that takes lots of management, and it could deter –  it could take my focus away from critical projects that need to happen right now.

MARIANNE

Yeah, yeah, I totally understand that.

JAMES

I will tell. But I am dedicated to the phenomenon. And, you know, we’re the flavour of the week right now. Which is great. But, you know, you have to capitalise, and I don’t mean that financially, but capitalise on the spotlight. I feel like almost an obligation to keep the momentum going right now because look how much progress we’ve made in the last couple of years, right?

MARIANNE

Oh, gosh. Yes. One more –  one more question on that area of making the movie, before we move on.

JAMES

Oh, please, go ahead.

MARIANNE

Which is, did you –  were you ever concerned about your personal safety and the safety of your family
during the making of a documentary?

JAMES

There were times when – Often, actually- I felt that. You know, you just kind of feel like you’re being watched. You know, you just kind of feel it. I felt that a lot, but I also felt secure knowing that I was working with people like Senator Harry Reid, and The New York Times and other governors and the like. I felt a little more protected, in the sense that it was higher profile. And one of my financial backers had, you know, assured me that that we were we were being looked after – put it that way.

MARIANNE

That’s great.

JAMES

Yeah, but look, I didn’t feel like my life was in danger. I never felt like that. But you feel like you’re just, you know, you’re poking around in places where, you know.

MARIANNE

Yeah, yeah. Exactly where they don’t want the sun to shine.

JAMES

People don’t want the sun to shine. You’re pulling the curtain back a little bit. You know, some people want it, but other people don’t want it. And I actually got a call, funnily enough, which I’ll share with you. I don’t think I’ve told?  I don’t think I’ve told anybody. Maybe I have?

We got a call from a former CIA guy. And he said, hey, I just want to let you know that your film is making the rounds at the Pentagon and I said, wow! And he said, yes, some are bracing for the impact. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, some people, you know, are happy about it, but some people are not happy about it. Because it’s going to, you know, inform the public, and they’re going to be, you know, having to answer some questions. That was kind of, that’s kind of neat to know that, you know, that what we’re doing is having an impact. And, you know, it’s hard to –  it’s harder for the government – when I say the government, I don’t even know who they are at this point. To give these ridiculous explanations of swamp gas or weather balloon.

MARIANNE

Oh gosh, yes.

JAMES

To an informed public?

MARIANNE

Yeah, exactly. Correct. Correct. And that’s actually part of the reason why I started my podcast, because I have been an experiencer in my entire life. So it was –  I felt like it was important to let people know that –  hey, hang on, we’re not the only life form out there. There are others. And if they’re – like, you know, your government came out just this year and said, well, yes, these flying saucers are real, but we don’t know where they’re from.

JAMES

Yeah, I think that’s probably true.

MARIANNE

Yeah. They’ve been drip-feeding. They’ve been drip-feeding the public for about three years now, steadily. So your, your documentary, ‘The Phenomenon’ is timed. Perfect timing. Perfect timing.

JAMES

Finally, right? Finally, it only took me twenty-seven years, you know, I mean, geez.  And it’s funny, when I finished, out of the blue, I, I remember –  it’s really funny. I remember my partner, writing partner, editing partner, Boris Zubov. Great guy. I love him to death. And he was in a foetal position – literally crying, because I was pushing him so hard. He was having an emotional breakdown, and we all – it was pretty intense for all of us- but he was in a foetal position, and he was just, you know, and his wife looked at me. And she was livid. She’s like, you’re killing my husband. What’s wrong with you? Stop it, stop, stop. And I thought, OK, well, I guess the film’s done, at this point, you know. While at the back of my mind, I was like, the film’s not done.

But we sold the film and then three years later, I owned it again. We sold it to NBC Universal – broadcast on the Sci-Fi channel. And then when I owned it again three years later, I went back at it, and I spent another couple of years on the movie, tightening it up a bit, you know, made it much better. And it’s called the director’s cut. It’s much, much, much better.

But still, it wasn’t there. And then I had another go with I Know What I saw and again, disappointed. Good little film. I sold it for quite a pretty penny at the time, for it, to A&E. It went on History Channel, a two-hour special, and that did moderately well. Yeah, we had some really high-profile public endorsements from like Steven Spielberg, and that was great. But still, I wasn’t totally happy. It didn’t. –  You know, when you have a concept in your mind of like what it is that you want to accomplish? You know, you think of it. And then you, and then it materialises with all this hard work, the birthing process.  And with The Phenomenon, I sat back –  and I’ll never forget it, and I said, OK, I think we did it this time, I’m pretty happy. Yeah, isn’t that nice?

MARIANNE

Wow. That’s lovely when that comes – As an artist myself, I totally get what you’re saying. Yeah. And it’s not often that you feel like that, that you’re actually satisfied. Because you look at your work and you go, hmmm, well, I should have done this, or I shouldn’t have used that colour. Yeah. So I totally, totally understand that. So, let’s talk about your documentary itself and particularly Mellor. How did he get the data?

JAMES

Are you talking about Christopher Mellon?

MARIANNE

Yes, Mellon. Oh, did I say Mellor? Sorry, Mellon, yes.

JAMES

No, no, no problem. Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Intelligence. He –  you know? He didn’t reveal exactly how it went about.  What he said- and he has to be careful, obviously, because it’s kind of a big deal – is that they found a loophole. OK. Found a loophole and basically walked that evidence right out of the Pentagon, and then it ended up on the front page of The New York Times, so that, you know, yes.  He said it was like a meeting in the parking lot with a briefcase, you know, and in the tapes, something like this. But but but there was a loophole they didn’t like. They didn’t break the law; they bent the rules, right?

MARIANNE

Right. Oh, very good. So for those listeners who are wondering what we’re talking about, this gentleman was the gentleman who released the documentaries – the film footage like the Tic-Tac videos. That’s correct. Isn’t that?

JAMES

Yeah, that was Christopher Mellon. Yep, yep,

MARIANNE

So, that’s how that footage got out into the public and the other ones as well. All three of them was it? From him? The Tic-Tac, the Gimbal…

JAMES

The videos, yeah, they were, but there’s a lot more we know about, a ton more that have not been released. There’s a huge effort to get that stuff. I mean, look, we’re pushing for government transparency, right? And, you know, one of the bombshell moments of the film is when Senator Harry Reid, who is a household name in America. He was Senate majority leader. Everybody knows Senator Harry Reid, and whether people agree with his politics or not, they’re like that. Senator Harry Reid, he’s big time. You know what I mean? Right. And Harry Reid, Senator Reid got Obama to run for president. I mean, that’s like well known. And, you know, Senator Reid said that, that in the movie –  I couldn’t believe it when he said it- that most of the evidence hasn’t seen the light of day. And that was. That was a moment!

MARIANNE

Definitely a bombshell, definitely a bombshell. So does it go along with the COVID-19 bill with a one-hundred-and-eighty-day countdown for you? So disclosure that’s doing.

JAMES

Yeah. That happened today, or is it yesterday?

MARIANNE

Yesterday.

JAMES

Oh, sorry. I got notified this morning about that story coming up. I don’t know. I’d known about it. I’d heard about it through Christopher Mellon. But I didn’t quite grasp the concept of it; evidently, it’s. You know, it’s like it’s like signed into law, basically, they have this assessment of, of, of these things and make it public. Yeah, well, sorry, we’ll see.

MARIANNE

That’s going to be very interesting to keep an eye on that one.

JAMES

That is for sure. I think twenty-twenty-one is going to be a very exciting year, in general.

MARIANNE

I think it’s going to be a very, very interesting year. So, of all the experiences that you covered in your documentary, what? Ah, which of all the experiences that you covered in your documentary do you feel, to you, were the most impressive?

JAMES

I would have to say. – If I could mention?  Could I mention four?

MARIANNE

Yes. Please, mention as many as you like.

JAMES

Yeah, I, I really like –  and funny enough, not that many people mention it. I think by the time they get to the end they’d forgotten about this. But there was a very dramatic encounter with Air Force Colonel William Coleman.

MARIANNE

Yes, that’s right….

JAMES

And it took place in 1955, in a B25 bomber over Alabama, and he was with a couple of engineers from Lockheed and Boeing. And he – and the significance of it is this. He –  first of all, it’s an incredibly dramatic, up-close encounter, nine minutes, that started at an elevation of nine thousand feet, chasing a flying saucer in broad daylight. And it ends up at treetop level, where they literally thought they were going to collide with this disc at treetop level. And he said he had to take evasive action to avoid hitting it. And he said that if he turned the plane to the right, it was so low that the wings would have hit the trees. So he had to lift first and then turn. He lost sight of it for a second. And then when they found it again, it was drifting across a field, a recently ploughed field and swirls of dirt on either end of the disk were coming up from the field.

“At first I said, it doesn’t have a tail, doesn’t have any wings. Look at the shadow on the ground. The shadow is perfectly round. That’s not an aeroplane. And I said, I’m overtaking it. So I said, hang on. So I make a hard turn, and there it was, a disc, going across the field with two big swirls.” -William Coleman

And what makes it significant? – A:  it’s a really dramatic encounter. Qualified observers. Then he was later put in charge as a public spokesman for Project Blue Book, which is the Air Force’s investigatory arm of UFOs. Well, what’s the first thing he did? He talks about this, and he went to find his own sighting and guess what?

MARIANNE

It wasn’t there.

JAMES

It wasn’t there.  The more credible the sighting, the more credible the observer, the witness, the less likely it was to see the light of day create that.

MARIANNE

I was going to talk about, bring that up later –  about the cross memo and Project Star.

JAMES

Oh yes, isn’t that cool? Oh, yeah that was with Jacques Vallee. Anyway, the second one was probably the first, extremely well-documented, close encounter of the third kind in US history.  Certainly modern history, and that is Socorro, New Mexico, nineteen -sixty-four, with the police officer, Lonnie Zamora. That case is really compelling.

“I saw this big cloud of smoke. So I decided to let go of the car and go up there and investigate. By the time I got there, I could see a big white object sitting in the arroyo [stream]. I couldn’t tell what it was at first.” ~ Lonnie Zamora

And, you know, I loved hearing from the police officer’s wife for the first time the impact it had on his life. All the government records, the Air Force records from Project Blue Book, even documented diagrams, landing site, and the footprints of the creatures. And it’s just, it’s such a compelling case. Then, you know, the hearing from Al Chop, who was in the radar room the night of the –  there were two consecutive flyovers of Washington, D.C., the Capitol building, the White House. And hearing from –  and I’d heard about that case for a long time. In fact, I’ve covered it in previous films. But hearing someone who is actually in the radar room that night, Al Chop testimony.

That archival footage of that interview with –  was taken by a guy named Tom Tooley in a project archive. Project Cine Archive of Al Chop – is just listening to him describe the pilot, who’s flying at six hundred miles an hour in the pitch black, over the Capitol.  And suddenly finding himself surrounded by unknowns.  And getting on his radio and radioing down to the tower and basically saying –  And look, the people in the tower were listening to his voice, Al Chop included, you know?  And seeing on the radar dish that they’re all around him.  And hearing him say, “I’m surrounded. What do I do?” You know, and they all didn’t know what to tell him.

“ Heaps of (inaudible) are closing in on me. What do I do? It was frightening.” – Al Chop

And in hearing that – something about hearing that first-hand testimony of someone who was in the radar room- really brought that case to life for me. A fascinating case. And then, of course. Ruia, Zimbabwe, nineteen-ninety-four, you know, the landing at the school, hearing from the children, thanks to Dr John Mack.  The Harvard psychiatrist who interviewed the children in Africa right after it happened.

Sixty-six, they think there were only sixty-six people in the playground. But no, there were one hundred people in the playground. One hundred.  And sixty-six of them went on camera. So I went to Africa. I went to the school, and I talked to the teachers. And there were about one hundred kids in the playground.  And it was ten thirty in the morning, in broad daylight. And just the sheer volume of eyewitness testimony –  And then, of course, tracking the children down twenty years later and bringing them in as young adults.  And listening to their stories now, after they’ve had time to think about it and articulate. You know, it’s just, it’s a really compelling case. One of the best.

CHILD 1

“It, um, flew past really slowly.”

CHILD 2

“I saw the bigger one and a spaceship, like four or five of them.”

CHILD 3

“It was red, green, and yellow.”

CHILD 4

“There was this big ship; it had these lights. These patterns, and it flew.”

MARIANNE

Yeah, that one really – I’ve always followed that one and the Westall one in Aussie. And there have been a couple of other ones.

JAMES

Did you know? Did you know about the Westall UFO case? Because I didn’t know.

“It was vertical, horizontal. Move away from us, back towards us. Appear somewhere else.” Witness

MARIANNE

No, no, I didn’t. And I’m absolutely amazed that these, these, both these cases got very little publicity, very little. In fact, they were not very well known at all. So the fact that you included them for me, they’re probably some of the most credible cases ever. Because they were seen by mult – and and certainly with the Zimbabwe one. They were actually – It actually landed, and there were beings seen.

JAMES

Yep. Yep, I know, right?

CHILD

“He had a big head, and big black eyes. And was dressed in a black bodysuit.

REPORTER

“How far away were you when you, when you saw him?”

CHILD

“Ah, not very far, not very far. About a metre away.

REPORTER

“A metre away? That close?”

CHILD

“Yes.”

CHILD – Now Adult

“I stand by what I saw. There was no reason for any of us to make that up.”

JAMES

Crazy. I know. It’s just amazing. And look, even that one little –  with Father Gill that took place in Papua New Guinea in nineteen, nineteen-fifty, was that seven or fifty-eight? But that’s incredible; that was really fascinating here, Father Gil, I mean, I’d heard about that. It was nineteen fifty-eight. I can’t even pronounce it correctly, but you’re the one that’s going to pronounce it properly.

MARIANNE

Papua. Papua, New Guinea

JAMES

Papua. Papua, New Guinea. Well, thank you.

MARIANNE

I probably just mispronounced that as well.

JAMES

But here – what it was- it took to track down that interview with Father Gill.

FATHER GILL

“This solid-looking object. And can you imagine what it’s like to look up in the sky and see some figures up there?”

JAMES

Oh my gosh! I could write a documentary. You could do a documentary on every single archival bit of footage that we found.

MARIANNE

Yeah. Really.

JAMES

What it took to uncover!

MARIANNE

As I was watching your documentary. I was thinking, oh, my God, he’s going to such an effort to track these people down.  To find them, to connect them, to get them to actually talk. That really impressed me greatly, because I recognised how much actual work was involved for you in seeing it. So much!

JAMES

Insane, absolutely insane. And I try not to read the reviews of, ‘cause, they say don’t, just don’t do it!  Because people are just so –  you know? Yeah. And I see some, you know, probably some quasi-seasoned UFO enthusiasts, you know. Oh, nothing new in this documentary. Same old, rehashed, you know, whatever. And I think to myself, what are you talking about? Like, I could tell you that some of the most seasoned historians have gone; where did you find that interview? Where did you find the pipeline? Where did you find those audio bits?

I’m like, thank you for recognising that; that was a monumental effort. It took years. The nineteen seventy-eight footage at the United Nations, the very man, Lee Speigal, who put that event on with Jacques Vallée and Dr J. Allen Hynek. He didn’t even have that footage. He didn’t even think it existed. We found it, you know? And then all these other archived interviews. So, I can’t change history if we’re going to cover some of the history, some of the more salient aspects of UFO history. It is what it is. But you have the new testimony and new archival, never-before-seen footage really brings it to life in a way that I haven’t seen it done before.

MARIANNE

It really does. And I was actually reading some when I was researching this; I was actually reading some of the bits that people had written, and I saw that some had said it’s nothing new.  And I’m going, what!?! Did these people watch this with their eyes closed? And I’m quite –  I watch these documentaries with a knowing eye because I know what I know. You know, from personal experience. So I look at these documentaries, and I look at what they produce and what’s ongoing. But with yours, it was stuff that hadn’t been out in the public. You know, I think these people, they just some of them, they just look for things to…

JAMES

criticise

MARIANNE

criticise yeah.  Because that’s what they feel their job is.

JAMES

But I do think, and if you knew the lengths that I went to uncover never-before-seen archival footage, or extremely rare archival footage and what we did, it was a monu –  herculean effort. I cannot emphasise that enough. It took years.

MARIANNE

Oh, I absolutely recognise that. And as soon as I was watching your documentary, that was what really hit me was the fact that the effects you had gone to. Because I knew what a task it was to track these people down.  And to get people to talk. And, you know, that really impressed me as much as anything. So overall, James, how well do you think the public’s received your documentary? Obviously really well, because it’s doing good, but…

JAMES

It’s been number one on iTunes worldwide for documentaries and just stuck at number one. It just doesn’t move. It’s right. In fact, I can look right now and see if it’s still there. It kind of blows my mind, quite honestly. My partner, Rebecca, she’s like, honey, your phone is broken. You need to try it on my phone. It’s just not right. And then I said, yeah, there it is. Right there

MARIANNE

There was this awesome, James. And it’s so well-deserved.

JAMES

It’s just unbelievable. It is day after day, week after week. It doesn’t punch. It has not moved from number one.

MARIANNE

That’s because what comes from the heart touches the heart. And when you speak a truth, when you tell a truth, people resonate with that on a soul level.  And people now, more people than ever, are waking up to the fact that there are many more realities than the one we currently know of. But I would like to talk about Jacques Vallée and the Ford memo. And when you brought up Project Blue Beam, which was really just a cover project to placate, to placate the masses, which really was nothing. But Project Stock was a well-thought-out, well-funded, highly technical underground project. So can you tell my listeners and us about that price?

JAMES

Well, yeah, I mean, it just- it’s proof positive that paralleling this dog-and-pony show of Project Blue Book, which was, you know, poorly funded only, I think it only had a staff of maybe three or four at the most, you know, and. Was an incredibly well-funded, underground, super-secret, off the radar of a UFO project.  Where they were utilising sensors and had budgets and scientists and all that. And Doctor Vallee came across this memo, which was actually classified top secret in Hynek’s own files. And eventually, through quite a tedious process, had it declassified and made it available to us.

And he’s like, look, you know, there’s a lot of documents out there, but this is bonafied. Like, I myself found I myself got too deep, you know, into the declassified and it wasn’t redacted. You know, L.A. puts a lot of weight on that. I highly doubt it. I mean, it’s a legitimate government document. So that’s what makes it exciting. I mean, does it really surprise me? It doesn’t really surprise me. Does it surprise you? Of course not. Now you’ve got unknowns penetrating sensitive airspace, whizzing around with impunity. Of course, they’re going to put all hands on deck and try to get to the bottom of it and allocate serious, significant resources to figure out what’s going on.

MARIANNE

Right. Absolutely.

JAMES

Of course, it’s their job.  They have to do that.

MARIANNE

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I found that really interesting. And that’s, that’s new. That’s never been in the public domain before.

JAMES

No, no, no, I mean, it was the first time that I’m aware of that he ever went – gave an interview about it.  And shared it and all the details and yeah. Jacques had a couple of little tricks that he pulled out of his sleeve during production. And I actually consider Jacques a dear friend now.  I have so much respect for him, so much respect for him. I mean, I just. Yeah, so much respect for that man, I mean, all I can do is just listen and learn, really.

MARIANNE

Yeah, he he’s a very interesting chap, and of course, they used him in the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Spielberg used him.

JAMES

I know, I know it’s crazy. I wonder if Steven Spielberg has seen this movie. He saw my last UFO film, but I don’t know if he’s seen this one. Not I would imagine. I mean, how could he not have? I don’t know.

MARIANNE

Well, I would imagine that he probably has. I’m surprised you haven’t heard from him.

JAMES

No, no, I’m surprised too. I need to follow up on that one.

MARIANNE

Yes. Yes. So what are your thoughts about the government response today compared to nineteen-fifty-three, when they, you know, ridiculed and–how do you feel about the government’s Handling –  well, not only the government, but the press no longer ridicules these subjects when they come up on television.

JAMES

I think the climate has changed. Significantly, particularly since the front page of The New York Times featured that previously secret UFO Pentagon program, ATTIP

MARIANNE

Right? Oh, yes. Yes, that’s right.

JAMES

That’s the Aerospace Identification Program. I think that everything changed on that day. And I knew it at the time, because I’ve had sceptical family members and friends over the decades –  and when that hit, even my neighbour, who was a famous editor. He edited Apocalypse Now.  And Walter even said, my God, you know, James, looks like you were right all these years, you know? And that’s, that’s been, that’s been it’s nice to see it. As I said, the climate has changed. It’s being taken seriously. It’s been acknowledged as something, and I think that twenty twenty-one is going to be an exciting year for all.

MARIANNE

It’s going to be a very exciting year. And of course, with the COVID situation, people have had time to sit and think about things. They’ve had time to look at the sky and see what’s out there, you know? Whereas before, they didn’t have the space to do that because they’re so busy living their lives. People are busy.

JAMES

Yeah, you know, it might actually be the perfect time. I mean, you know, people are stuck in their homes, everything, everything’s kind of changed, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think I remember I think it was in April, April or May; I can’t remember. But, you know, basically the government said- the Department of Defence, yes, those videos are legitimate, and they’re true unknowns.  Basically admitting, you know, for the first time that, you know, these things are real and –  And I remember some comments online on social media. People like, this happened. This happened in the government just said aliens exist. So there we go, you know.

MARIANNE

Exactly. Exactly. And, and what amazes me is that it didn’t make worldwide news, you know? There wasn’t a big, you know…

JAMES

And you know, the best way I can describe that. – I was interviewing a, probably a group of about five or six women that were hospice workers. They described the massive UFO flyover of Phoenix, Arizona, March thirteenth, nineteen-ninety-seven. I don’t like to call it the Phoenix Lights; it’s commonly referred to as the Phoenix Lights because it was more than lights. It was a massive craft. Yeah, multiple craft.

But anyway, I’m interviewing these women, and they were describing how they were having tea. It was a late afternoon, early evening, summer. And all of a sudden, this object that looked like a floating city, according to their description. Floated right over the top of them. And it took a couple of minutes, but they could see the craft, and they said, look, if we hadn’t looked up, we wouldn’t have even known it was there. That’s how quiet it was. But it floated over the top of us.

And they could see compartments in the metal, as they described it, looking like a city. And it just floated very slowly right over the top of them, very low. And like I said, it took a couple of minutes, and they all just sat there with their mouths open, looking up at this thing. And then they went –  and then it passed over, and then they went right back to chatting about what they were chatting about.  And I said, well, hold on a second. Didn’t somebody get up and run to grab a camera, or get in your car, chase it or something?  They said, no, we didn’t. I said, well, how could you not? They said, I don’t know. But I think that it’s so massive a concept. It’s such a–people don’t know how to process it; it’s beyond, you know, something to wrap your mind around. And so it’s almost like it just didn’t happen. It’s like, you know, look, you can’t process what just happened. Treat it like a non-event. It’s weird. It’s really strange. It’s really strange. And I’ve talked to several witnesses who have had it- not all of them, but a lot of them who just can’t even process it.

MARIANNE

Yeah, of course, because it’s so far out of their normal paradigm. And I forget what it’s like for people, because for me, UFOs and star people are just my day-to-day reality, you know. So I forget what it’s like for the person who doesn’t have those experiences; it’s very overwhelming. And people have to really change their paradigms, and change the way they think about things. And for some people, it’s just too hard. It’s just, too hard

JAMES

You know, that’s a good case. And I remember talking to several witnesses on the Phoenix Lights case, and there was one car that –  I spoke to the drivers that pulled over on Interstate 10, between Tucson and Phoenix.  And they said that, in fact, most of the cars on the freeway had pulled over and people got out. And they were looking at this massive boomerang-shaped craft floating very slowly, just down the freeway, right over the top of the freeway.  On its way, I think it was from Phoenix to Tucson or Tucson to Phoenix. I’m pretty sure it was Phoenix to Tucson. And then they got back in their cars and off they went.

MARIANNE

Yeah, kind of crazy. Crazy. They don’t question it.

JAMES

Well, you know, I mean, what do you do?

MARIANNE

I mean, you know, and of course and of course, people are because of how it has been treated. People, ah, well, we’re more shy about speaking out than they are now because of the ridicule.

JAMES

You know, I would love to see a mass sighting like the one of nineteen-ninety-seven over Phoenix, over Arizona- sorry, started at the southern tip of Nevada.  And then worked its way across the state of Arizona from north to south, over several hours. And if something like that happened today – and it was witnessed by a lot of people at the time, because the Hale-Bopp comet was going on back then. And people were out in the night sky to get a glimpse of the Hale-Bopp comet

But if it happened today, which it inevitably will, would there be a lot of cell phone footage of it? Yes. I mean, so I think that that’s, you know, one thing I’ll point out: it’s interesting, you know, people say, well, if you will, when they just land on the White House lawn, well, we don’t know. Like, look, look at what they do, but you look at what they don’t do. They don’t make themselves overtly known. Neptune, pretty outrageous stuff for sure. But in terms of, like, just. You know, all they have to do is row over the Macy’s Day Parade or New York City on New Year’s Eve, and it’s a done deal, right? Yeah. But they don’t do that. Yeah. And you have to ask yourself, why is it that they reveal themselves just enough but not too much? And one can only speculate, but you look at what they do, but you also look at what they don’t do- not answering the question.

MARIANNE

It does exactly. So where do you think you’re going to go from here, James? Are you going to have a break, a well-earned rest?

JAMES

No. In a word, no, no

MARIANNE

I knew you were going to say that.

JAMES

I thought I was going to, but I, I feel a sense of obligation to –  To take advantage of the momentum that’s occurring right now and not let up as much as I’d like to. I think it would be a mistake. So, I’m going to keep the hammer down right now.

MARIANNE

I totally get that. And you’re right. You really need to take, take advantage of the momentum

JAMES

You have to, right? Yeah, we’re the flavour of the week and next week it’ll be somebody else. That’s great. You know, I’m, I’m really happy that, you know, we, we set the bar for how this topic really needs to be treated and reported.

MARIANNE

Oh my gosh. You certainly have.

JAMES

Right? And I’m really proud of that. I really am. And it took a village. I mean, I was just one of many people, and I say this sincerely, is that this film’s success is all of our success. Yeah. This is not about me and any one person. This story is about all of us. And we all are entitled to know what’s going on, whether it’s a little frightening or not. And it’s. It’s part of our place in the universe, and it’s part of a much bigger story, and I think we’re all entitled to the information. I really do. I look at my son, and I think I’d like for him to grow up in a world where this is not being kept secret.

MARIANNE

Yeah, I totally understand that.  And that’s very well said, James. Very well said. And I absolutely agree with that. People have a right to know; it’s our right. And a lot of information has been held back because, like they used to say, people panic that religions will go and that they won’t have the control that they have currently over humanity as we stand.

JAMES

Don’t you think it would have a unifying effect on humanity?

MARIANNE

I would think so.

JAMES

I do, because I think it forces us to see ourselves for who we really are. I mean, I had the distinct privilege of getting a sit-down interview with the sixth man to walk on the moon. Yeah, and I will never forget what he told me. When I want to really absorb a particular story, I always close my eyes because I love the words of the witness to recreate the story, the imagery in my mind. Right. It’s almost like I’m living; I’m experiencing it through there, through them, like through their eyes. Right. And I get them to give me vivid detail, and I close my eyes and recreate these visuals. And it’s amazing. And I listen to Dr Edgar Mitchell, sixth man on Apollo fourteen, because I asked him, and I said, I know that you get this all the time. And I’m super duper sorry to ask this of you, but, my God, what was it like to land on the moon? So he told me in vivid detail, and he said, I’ll never forget this, he said, I stood on the surface of the moon, and I watched the Earth rise.

And he said, there was this blue marble, this beautiful blue marble suspended in the vacuum of darkness. And he said there were no borders, no country lines. No. And he said, I have one hand, and I blocked out the entire Earth with one hand and the palm of my hand and everything we knew –  And he realised, you know, you see it, we’re one race, one people, one planet. And I think that this story coming out would have that unifying effect on all of us; I really believe that!

MARIANNE

What a beautiful description he gave. I could just –  like you, I could just see it in my mind’s eye, you know. I guess it’s the thing when you’re a creative, artistic type of person; it’s easier to visualise stuff like that. And yeah, that’s really, really touching. And that’s a really nice way to actually, I think, end our conversation. James, I’m so grateful for your time today. I’ve really, really enjoyed this conversation. Your video website is www.phenomenonthemovie.com

JAMES

Yeah. So, so here’s the thing. If your audience, your listeners, are wanting to help out, they can rate the film.  Super duper helpful. It really is incredibly helpful, believe it or not, because it goes into algorithms.  And the ratings and other platforms look at it, Oh, this is rating well. So take the time, if you like it, and hey, take your time. If you really don’t like it, you can rate it.

But rating the film is incredibly helpful. It only takes a minute. You can just give it a star rating. You can say something, or you could just give it a star rating. That’s very helpful – Rotten Tomatoes, iTunes, Amazon. The other thing is, if you want to rent it, then just Google and find the least expensive. I think it’s a couple of dollars, but if you want to buy it, there are only two platforms that offer three hours of bonus material for free, no extra cost.

Yeah, I put three hours of bonus material in, and then I found out that only iTunes and Vimeo offered the three hours of bonus material. So those are the only two platforms, if you buy it, that you should buy it from. It’s iTunes or Vimeo, and you get three hours of bonus material for the same price.

MARIANNE

Dang! I missed that. I’ll have to go and get it now.

JAMES

I tell people that because, you know, people should know if they’re going to spend the money and buy it, that they should get the three hours of – great hours, too. Like, I really, I put some good stuff in there.

MARIANNE

Oh, I’m going to have to go back and buy that James, so I can see the extra bits, because the movie itself is amazing!  And I cannot stress enough to my listeners: look, go and watch it for yourself. James has put his heart and soul into this, and it shows.  It’s really an amazing, amazing movie.  James, thank you for your time. I’ve truly appreciated this. It’s been really interesting.

JAMES

We’ll thank you for having me on that. I’ve had a wonderful time myself. Thank you for your support and all your enthusiasm. Thank you.

I’d like to thank James for his time today and for the permission to use the sound clips from his documentary ‘The Phenomenon’. I am very grateful for both. I have thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with James, and I hope you all have as well.

Please share this episode with anyone you feel would listen to it. I am going to close this conversation as I started it. With another quote from Christopher Mellon:

“We need to begin to prepare to accept and understand that we are not alone in the universe. Have not been at all, throughout this time.”

If you enjoyed this episode or this podcast, then please, as James said earlier in the episode about rating his movie, please do the same for our podcast. The ratings of the podcast are looked at by people, and if it’s rated well, then they are more likely to want to listen to it. As James says, it really does help immensely. So give it a positive rating and a review. Thank you so much.

Today’s bumper music is called Galactic Battles, by Bonnie Grace. Sort of appropriate, don’t you think?

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