Episode 130: Non-Human

Welcome to another episode of the Walking the Shadowlands podcast. Today, I’ve got a real treat for you. We’re diving deep into the Shadowlands. Into the extraordinary, with a fascinating guest, who’s been on the front lines of uncovering the unexplained. Joining us is a former police detective turned UFO researcher and the author of the thought provoking book Non-Human

Our guest has dedicated his life to peeling back the layers of mysteries surrounding unidentified aerial phenomenon, UFOs or UAPs. Sparking conversations that challenge the status quo. Through untold stories, compelling evidence and our guests own experiences, that have left him questioning the boundaries of our reality.

From close encounters to governmental secrecy. We’ll explore the uncharted territories that push the boundaries of what we think we know. So, grab your favourite beverage. Settle in and join us. As we unravel the enigma of extraterrestrial encounters, government cover ups. And the profound impact these mysteries have had on our perception of humanity. Our guest is here to share his insights, experiences and the revelations packed within the pages of Non-Human

This episode is sure to challenge your perspective and leave you questioning the world around you. Without further ado, are you willing to walk into the Shadowlands with me and see what awaits us there? Let’s begin.

Gary Heseltine is the founder and editor of the UFO Truth magazine, and is based in the UK. Born in 1960, he spent six years in the Royal Air Force Police. before joining the British Transport Police in 1989. He went on to complete an almost 24 year career before retiring early in 2013 to follow his passion for research in UFOs.

For most of his police service he served as a detective constable. Working on all manner of inquiries including murder, manslaughter and rape. He became an advanced police interviewer of witnesses and suspects. And in that specialist role he was involved in the 2005 London bombings terrorist inquiry. Where he interviewed a number of first responding BTP officers to three of the four crime scenes.

In 2010 he was awarded the PRG Disclosure Award in Washington DC for his work with police officers. And in 2012 he was presented with the EXO Politics Great Britain Award for his research. He then appeared at the prestigious 2013 Citizens Hearings at the National Press Club in Washington, D. C, USA, speaking on behalf of police officers worldwide.

As one of nine researchers, he gave testimony before the Brazilian Senate in June 2022. where he stated that he believed some UFO UAP events were likely to be extraterrestrial or Non-Human in origin. Gary is also the Vice President of ISA, International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research, an international NGO comprising scientists, academics, and leading UAP researchers with national representations in 30 countries.

Non-Human is his first book on the subject of UFOs or UAPs. I’d like to welcome my guest, Gary Heseltine.


Marianne: I’ve been waiting to talk to you about this subject that we’re going to tackle today. It’s a topic that has had my interest since before I started my podcast. Can you perhaps start by giving us an overview of the Rendlesham Forest UFO incidents and what led you to delve into this topic for your book.

Gary: I had an interest in Rendlesham for a long time before I got involved in active research about it. Because, for six years I served in the Royal Air Force Police. And for three of my six years I did the same as what the US security police involved in the Rendlesham incident. Which was guarding tactical nuclear weapons on a nuclear weapon storage area. So I had some kind of experience guarding nuclear weapons similar to theirs. And there isn’t a lot of difference, to be honest. And I always thought that there were probably many more witnesses. Because I knew how the well key storage area works and how the people were on the base doing security, that kind of thing.

And so that kind of led me over a period of time to get involved. I first became involved in Rendlesham public research in December of 2007, when I did a history channel program for what was called the UFO hunter series. With a guy called Bill Burns. And they’d invited Colonel Holt, who wrote the famous Holt Memorandum, to come over as one of the guests.

They were also filming me because I have this unofficial national police database in the UK called Proof Force. About police officers. So that’s how I became known within the subject. And I just happened to remark, I said, you’re coming over to film me. It’s a long way to come from America, just to film me.Are you doing anything else? And they said, yeah, we’re doing Rendlesham Forest. And so I said, I’ve got an interest in Rendlesham Forest. And they said, why? And I explained about my military service. And they said, Oh, that’s interesting. Do you want to come along and involve. And meet Colonel Holt? And obviously I said, Oh, obviously I’d love to come down.

And so that’s how I got to meet Colonel Holt. So, it was at that point there, December 2007, that I went public with my research. Moving forward, 2017, I was asked to take part in a proposed documentary about Rendlesham Forest. And, as the lead researcher, I thought, if I’m going to do this, I’d best make sure it’s accurate.

So, I thought I knew a lot. I did know a lot. I thought I’m going to go back to square one after the incident and just see what I can come up with. And so that was what prompted me to do that. And then the book came from a decision made in early 2020, when I realized that the documentary, which was by then already three years in course production, still wasn’t coming out. And my then wife said, why don’t you write a book? You’ve got loads of material. More than enough for the documentary. So I thought about, I thought, yeah, that’s right. I’ve got a lot of material. So then I started thinking about the book. And so I became involved in writing it in 2017.

Here we are six years later, the book’s behind me and I released it in February of this year, on Amazon. So in the process of doing that, I approached what I already knew prior to 2017. And then if you, and I know that you read the book now. You can see that I divided it up to pre 2017 before I got involved. And then what I learned after 2017. I think you’ll attest to the fact that there’s a lot of new material in there that never been aired before. And when I released the book. I did so without any pre publicity, who does that? Who writes the book, their first book and doesn’t promote it.

But I did! I did that purposely because I knew that some people in America, particularly, did not want me to reveal what I was going to reveal. And so I thought if I do it this way, I put self published on Amazon, then the genie is out of the bottle. And the public get to read what you should have been told about a long time ago. And so just trying to get the evidence out there. My approach to the book was just to concentrate on the facts. As a former police detective, reassess things and make a determination based on the evidence. And give reasonable conclusions, which is what I’ve done. But you’re the one that’s ready. You tell me whether I succeeded or not.

Yeah, I think you did a brilliant job. Before we get into your book, perhaps we should, talk about what the Rendlesham incident was?

Okay. So Rendlesham basically is a series of UFO related incidents that take place in late December, 1980. In and around the twin US bases of RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge. So you’ve got two American bases, and in the middle there is a forest called Rendlesham forest. And a lot of the incidents happened in the forest, which was on British ground. It wasn’t an American land. And whilst there were some incidents on the bases, the majority of incidents took place in the forest, very close to one of the, main gates at RAF Woodbridge.

It’s very famous, if you know the case, what’s called the East Gate. It’s like the rear entrance barrier. And a lot of incidents, are there or nearby. So that’s the key area. And basically it involves the United States air force, security police. Or some military police, for want of a better word. Who were principally guarding tactical nuclear weapons. Which is small, low yield, nuclear weapons that were held in the other base, Bentwaters. In what was called their weapon storage area underground. They were stored there. But there was a contingent of security police at both Bentwaters and Woodbridge. And they would also have mobile patrols going between the two bases. Often driving on public roads. So that actually plays a part in one of the stories that we may talk about.

 Lieutenant Bonnie Tampered, what happened to her! What you have is a series of UFO related incidents that are largely seen by security police. But also some civilians who live near the bases. And also we know that there are other people, peripheral. Possibly firemen, military firemen, technical people who worked on vehicles, those kinds of things. So we’re not too sure of too many of them. We know one or two people who were named and they’re in the book. But the vast majority, are security police. And some high level officers saw them too. So that’s what makes it interesting. And there’s paperwork. There’s ground depressions that were found. There’s, I believe now, two landing sites. The first landing site has become very famous. Because it’s documented in what’s called the Holt Memorandum.

It was written by the then deputy base commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Holt. Who went out two nights after an initial landing of an unknown craft. And then, two nights later, the UFOs were seen again. He led a team out in the forest and he too had multiple UFO sightings with his colleagues. So he wrote it down on a memorandum that was sent to the British ministry of defence. And that was then passed to the Americans. Or rather ministry defence made a decision. And they amazingly said, there’s nothing of defensive significance. Despite the fact that there’s a known landing craft. Triangular in shape. Didn’t have an engine, no wings, no tail. Look like glass, feel like glass, warm to the touch. Three meters by three meters. And that’s not of defence interest? I’ve never really believed the Ministry of Defence line anyway. But that’s what they said.

There’s nothing of defence significance. And I think. What happened after that is that the American government realized how major case it was. The British government did. The British military, the American military, realized just how many incidents There’d been and how serious it was. Especially when they were claiming that they didn’t do any UFO research from the American perspective. That had all closed with Project Blue Book in 1969. And this case, there’s a direct threat. So I think that they came up with the idea to debunk it, as much as they could. And for about nearly three years, that’s what they did. They denied there was any paperwork. And it was only until the 2nd of October, 1983. Almost three years after the event, when the public became aware of this very… what is now a very famous document. The Holt memorandum. Outlined two different US ordinances, on two different nights. The US Air Force had said, no, there’s nothing. Nothing happened. We have no paperwork. And then suddenly, uh, yes, there, is this document. But that’s all we have. We don’t have anything else. I don’t believe that. And I think that they’ve got a lot of other documents secreted away.

Hundred percent. I agree with you. And this kind of leads on to the next question. The title of your book, Non-Human, is quite an intriguing title. Could you explain the significance of this title and how it ties into the events, because in your coverage of the basic events, you did omit one factor. That’s not widely known.

I’ve been a public researcher since January 2002. So 21st year of being out in the public domain as a UFO researcher. But I’ve been following the subject since my own childhood sighting when I was 16 years of age. I’ve been almost 47 years following the subject. And I think That’s led me to a, quite an historical, I consider myself now as something of an historian. So I’ve read all the books. I pretty much know all the people involved in the subject. So in a sense, I’m quite well placed in that way. But, the Rendlesham case and the book are important because It never really been told properly. Been, I think maybe a dozen books or so now, Rendlesham book. They’ve generally been told either from a very one point of view. Often , it wasn’t balanced. The best book prior to mine, I think, was “You Can’t Tell The People” by Georgina Brunei, which I think was placed in 2000. And she did a very good job. She wasn’t a UFO researcher at all. She was actually from the showbiz land and like gossip columnist, who accidentally start to research it. And at the time when people wrote books about UFOs, that’s what it was called.

And people only really ever thought about extraterrestrial. But in recent years, say in the last five years, six years. In CERN in Switzerland, the Large Hadron Collider has been doing experiments where they collide atoms at great speed. And then they see what happens at the collision point.  And there was what’s called the Higgs boson. The God particle as they called it. And when they collided in that infinitesimal split second. They saw other dimensions. And in the quantum physics world, they said that there were many more dimensions. And that opened the way for people to talk about quantum entanglement, which is way above my understanding. And most people’s understanding. Physics can be very difficult. But basically, it said you could maybe warp time space, and you can travel distances by being inter dimensional. So you might cut the distance by warping time. And people often do this, they say, time is linear, we travel that way. What they’re saying is, you can go from there to there, instead of there to there, by travelling through an inter dimensional portal, maybe. That kind of thing, which again, is very complicated. So, in recent years, people have been saying, probably extraterrestrial. But it could be interdimensional. And in the last 18 months or so, I’ve heard more and more people, some of them are really well connected. Say that it might actually be something that’s inter-terrestrial or ultra-terrestrial.

What we mean by that is there may actually be another race – not human, that’s on the Earth, that keeps themselves to themselves, maybe technologically very advanced. And they might be here and have always been here, maybe longer than we have. But they just keep themselves to themselves. So it sounds pretty crazy, but nobody rules out the interdimensional.  And so the phrase that’s now come, is non-human intelligence. What that basically means is, and actually echoes what we’d already talked about, because two years ago… I’m the vice president of ICE, the international coalition for extraterrestrial research. That’s made up of scientists, academics, and leading researchers around the world. We’ve got, representatives in 32 countries. Because it’s clearly a global issue. Right. It’s not a US issue, it’s a global issue. New Zealand issue, an Australian issue. It’s all countries of the world are affected. And when ISO was created, I was one of the founded people involved in that. I suggested that for anybody to become an ice, a national representative, that we all have to be on the same page.

Because historically, a lot of UFO groups could never, they were always arguing and my group is better than your group. And I wanted to get away from all that. I wanted to have a level playing field. So basically, the basic criteria for anybody to become a national representative or deputy national representative is that they would have to sign an oath. And the oath was based on loosely, we’ve studied the best evidence around the world for the last 75 years. And we’ve concluded that we’ve been engaged by a non-human intelligent. Probably extraterrestrial in origin.. Certainly non-human. That came about three years ago. We went public with creation in May, 2021.

So I think we were at the forerunners of using that term. It was already in existence. Certainly we were well placed to introduce it in 2021. And so, when it came to writing my book, Then even though personally, I think that the majority of what’s seen around the world is extraterrestrial. And that’s based on the contact phenomenon, where people all around the world, different continents. Even in third world countries, described similar species, similar experiences. That makes me think that’s real people. And I have been contacted some kind of experience with something that’s not imaginary, it’s real. And I think that it’s almost extraterrestrial. But as a catch all, it’s now easier to just put everything in the basket of saying it’s non-human. So I guess in some ways it’s a bit of a net, a catch all. So it could be extraterrestrial, inter-dimensional, inter-terrestrial. Or it might be a combination of all three. Personally, I still think the majority is extraterrestrial.

 That makes sense. If you’re a civilization that’s a million years ahead of Earth time, then you would have new methods of propulsion and traveling through the stars. Distances wouldn’t be the problem. It’d be a bit like star trekking and walking. It certainly makes sense to me. And I think a lot of astronomers are very narrow minded because they can only relate to it in an earthly term. And it doesn’t make sense.  If I was to give my iPhone or my iPad to Leonardo da Vinci. Who was the greatest mind of his time, 400 years ago, 500 years ago. He would claim that iPhone was magic. He would not, in any circumstances, be able to understand electronics, etc. That’s just 500 years. What if a civilization… is a thousand years, 10,000 years ahead of Earth time.  So I don’t think . A factor in the same way that at one time we couldn’t travel. We had no means to travel over animals, horses, and then we got faster. Then we got the SR 71. They could fly around the earth in three and a half hours and so on time reduces it. The more you become technological.

So I think if anything was advanced older than this planet. And actually the earth is quite a young planet, and I think life is teeming out there. And Ping said to me, why did they come here? And I would say, think of it from this point of view. We go to the Great Barrier Reef because it’s an area of special interest.We go to the Galapagos Islands because of some of the species and fauna that’s there. It’s a period of scientific interest. If you were able to travel the stars, like we can travel between, fly between cities. In the comparison, you’d want to come maybe to earth. Because in maybe not a bit of a cosmic network, we’re a planet that’s so rich in water, light, fauna, uh, diverse, light fauna. So I think we’re probably like an oasis, in the desert. We’re an interesting place. And if you have that ability to travel like that, then it makes perfect sense. You could come here, space tourism as much as anything. We’d be the insects on the ground.

Yeah, absolutely. The human zoo. Yeah. When this Rendlesham forest thing went on. They not only saw the craft on the ground, but they also saw non-human beings, as well.

 Yes. There’s two reports that are legitimate from. Military witnesses. The first one involves a guy called John Burroughs. Who was one of the original people to see the landed object on the first night. Interestingly, he will say that he didn’t see a craft, that Jim Penniston was with him. Jim Penniston says he saw this small black object on the ground. John Burroughs was several metres back and he said all he saw was the glow of light. Which suggested a structure behind. So, from his perspective, several metres back, he didn’t see the craft clearly. And that’s where you put a slight discrepancy, but again, it’s on perspective.

If you’re 20 metres, 30 metres behind the other person. Then your perspective may well be a block in terms of bright light eminating from the craft. He went out with a sergeant called Adrian Bustinza. And this is on what’s called the Holt night. We think there’s four consecutive nights now. But on night three, and these have always changed over the years as we’ve learned more. Originally there were only two nights. Then we realized that there were three nights. Now this Adrian Bustinza was interviewed. Key interview that I did four and a half-hour transatlantic phone call. He was able to corroborate another landing. On the Holt night, Holt goes out with his team of four or five.

That’s the story. They come for four and a half-hours to what’s called the staging area. The staging area is an important part of the story because it’s where the vehicles had to stop, in the forest. Because there was no more roads. So there were rough little tracks and then they come to a dead end and that’s where they left all the vehicles. So that became the staging area for anybody who went into the forest. They had to get out and then go on foot. When Colonel Holt had been out with his team, they come back after four and a half hours. John Burroughs was waiting and stating this up, but John Burroughs had been off duty, got a lift into the base. He’d heard that something was going on again in the forest. He’d been involved in the first night with Jim Penniston. And, this was two nights later and he wanted to get involved again. And he was told to wait until Colonel Holt came out with his team. Colonel Holt comes back with his team four and a half hours later. And he then says to Colonel Holt, can I go out there?

 And Holt says, yeah, okay. And Sergeant Adrian Bustinza was nearby, and he said, Sergeant Bustinza, would you come with me? Now, Sergeant Bustinza had been with Holt’s team. So he probably wasn’t overly impressed at the time, to go after four and a half hours of walking around. He was asked to go back out. So he said, yeah, okay, I’ll come back in a few minutes. So they get permission to go. And we’re not quite sure exactly where this incident take place. But it’s not in the farmer’s field, which is a famous area, if you know Rendlesham. It’s near to the side of the field. It’s within a hundred meters, roughly where we think it happened. And what they basically say is John Burrows is walking ahead of Sergeant Adrian Bustinza.

Then, a strange thing happens. Adrian Bustinza feels like somebody has kicked his legs out from underneath, from behind, alright? And he falls forward, as you would. And he puts his hands down to stop himself falling flat, yeah? And at the same time, John Burroughs, who’s maybe 20 meters ahead of him, suddenly is engulfed in this big, bright ,white light. And it’s so bright, as he’s looking forward, he can just see John Burroughs in the middle of this bright light. What he said was, he could see a smaller figure on the left of John. And a smaller figure on the right of John. I think John Burroughs is 6 foot 6 or thereabouts. He’s a big guy. This is the two smaller things. Whatever you want to call them. Were seen on either side by Sergeant Adrian Bustinza.

But here’s the interesting thing. When Sergeant Adrian Bustinza fell forward, and then the light hit John. Part of the light hit… if you think of a shadow, capturing your sunlight on your hand. Part of the light that hit John also hit Sergeant Adrian Bustinza across his hands and his groin area. And he had medical symptoms to this day of what he thinks is related to that beam of light. Whether it from some kind of radiation, we don’t know. But he’s had minor issues with that all his life since. Irritation, scabbing and whatever. So that’s interesting. So that’s like the first site where he… Adrian Bustinza doesn’t like talking about entities, aliens or anything. He was very religious in his upbringing and he still has great faith.

And so when he saw this, caused him a lot of consternation. He suffered with post trauma distress is not unlikely. Plus these medical issues. Plus he was threatened with his life. When he was interrogated after the incident. So he has good reason to be not happy with his situation. But, he is inadvertently involved in the second incident as well. So bad luck for him. And Adrian Bustinza was involved in a second incident, which actually is arguably the most lied about. The most trivialized landing. A second landing. Because years ago when the first story broke, there was story of aliens right from the off. And the air force said there was no aliens, blah, blah, blah.

And that’s rubbish. However, a guy who is regarded as the military whistleblower for the case, was called Larry Warren. Young guy, only 19 years old, he was his first posting overseas. So he was green, in terms of military what to do. He’d only been on shift a few days and then suddenly find himself involved in this incident. He brought out a book here in 1997 called ‘Left at East Gate’. Which was a good book. And he told it from his point of view. And he was instrumental in getting the whole memorandum out. Because he was a named person. And why he became the military whistleblower was because he was the first person to say, my name is Larry Warren. And I was involved in this incident, in the press.. And he would put his hands up. So he is by far, well, there was another guy who would have been a military whistleblower. Who used the, pseudonym of J.D. Ingles – ah, Roberts. Whose actual name was found out many years later was J. D. Engles, but he never went public. He always used a pseudonym. So that’s not quite the same thing.

 So the first person to put their name to the case was this Larry Warren. He was only 19. Young guy. And basically, when his story came out, he then got attacked by all the military witnesses. Three in particular. Two in particular. Phil Holt and Jim Penniston. Who said, no, we don’t recall that. We think he’s making it up. He’s mistaken and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And he’s the base commander, Colonel Williams, in charge of 12, 000 people. He said, nah, that’s ludicrous, no aliens seen, blah, blah, blah. Now, for a long time, or in recent years, he was particularly criticized because people had said he wasn’t there. He was just making it up.

Colonel Holt would say he was a wannabe. He wanted to be part of the story. That’s ironic coming from him. Yeah, ironic, yes. And interestingly, I think. Some people in America, some researchers in America, didn’t really do their due diligence. Because over the years, Sergeant Adrian Bustinza, whilst he had never really done the press kind of thing. Done a big story, a big interview. He had made several remarks over the years. Seven of which, are highlighted in the book, where he’d said Larry Warren was there.

 Now, what there was some confusion about what night it was. And what came out in my book was that, after trying to get hold of, Adrian Bustenza for a long time, uh, and not having any responses from emails, social media. Through another military witness, Lori Buoen. Who’d had her own precursor sighting in February 1980, it’s listed in her book. She was friendly with him and she said, no, he isn’t Gary’s interviewed me. He’s serious. He’s a good guy, blah, blah, blah. So she opened the door and I was able to finally speak to Adrian Bustinza and it turned out to be this four and a half hour transatlantic call recorded and I did a basically a night shift and talk through the night. And it was exhausting.

I tried a technique that I was an advanced place interviewer and I tried to get him to remember as much as he could. Using what’s called the enhanced cognitive method. It’s just a way to trigger memories and set up an interview. And they actually saw really a lot as, and as you’ve read in the book, his chapter, I think he’s something like 80 odd pages. He’s the biggest chapter, but what he had to say was very important. And he said with Larry Warren, he said after three hours, three and a half hours into the interview, he not mentioned really Larry Warren and this incident at all. I’m getting tired now. It’s five in the morning. And honestly, I was saying the will, because when you’re asking questions and I realize that this is a very important interview, so you’re really concentrating and that is mentally tiring. Very tiring.

You know, when you’re asking questions, now you, yeah, just tired at the end of it. People don’t realize mentally tiring and, and I think I three hours as much as I want. I couldn’t, I was falling, almost falling asleep. I was really tired. So I, I said, I don’t want to lead you, but I said, I need to ask this question about Larry Warren because there’s all this debate, blah, blah, blah. And he said, he was there. And he said that it was another night. And I said, what do you mean? It’s another night. Never said this before. And he says, yeah, I was involved in a second. He believes it’s the second consecutive night. There might be a gap. Point was. He’d been involved in another night of UFO activity.

We thought he’d only been involved in one night of activity. It turns out it’s two. And he’s on his second night of activity. Actually, Larry Warren was in the field with me. He was closer to it than I was. So finally we had this put to bed on audio. And that was really nice. And he said, yeah, he’s there, or whatever. And I corroborated it in a second interview on Skype that was actually on video, that I recorded. But if you recall, we did the book. That was a nightmare for me ’cause he recorded his voice, his responses. But my questions, it aren’t recorded.

Yeah, that’s really weird.

I was lucky really because. It was better if his responses were recorded, because you could generally work out what the question was based on his answer. I’d quickly summarised what came from the first interview, the foreign art interview. And I’d said to him, basically, so I just want to summarise what emerged from the first interview. There wasn’t another landing. You were present, Larry Warren was present, Larry Warren was close. The crafty was surrounded by a security police officer. It was being filmed. General Holt was there. And Colonel Williams, the base commander was there. Yeah, so it’s yes, no, yes, and it was like five answers that you get. If I hadn’t have explained that, it wouldn’t have made any sense whatsoever.

But I knew exactly what the questions were. Because that’s what you would do as an advanced police interviewer. You’ve done one interview, you go back. And if you’ve had some key admissions, you like to go back and just summarize those key admissions. And it’s the second time that person confirms the key admission. Yeah. So that’s what you do. Quick summary. So in the first interview you said this, yes, and it’s all tidied up, and they can’t ever take that back then. You’ve admitted it twice.  They admitted it in the first interview and then you’ve summarized it, I’ve admitted it, and second it, you can’t really go beyond it. So I knew what most questions were when I got off. I thought, oh, this is great. And I played back and I’m like, Nope, it’s never been on video.

I ain’t got my, and I tried every week where find a way to retrieve the sound and there may well be a way, but I haven’t been able to find it. I just have to tell the truth in the book and hope people would believe me. But that is exactly what happened. And he said some very important things, especially about his interrogation in the Skype interview. How he destroyed evidence. He put it in the fire. Because his family were giving in greed. Because his father worked for the government and they were being surveilled by unknown agencies, intelligence agencies. So it got on top of him. And he burnt a lot of the stuff that he collected over here. But he made a really big, important statement, because what he said was, that he’d been sent an envelope out of the blue. Don’t know who sent it. And in the envelope, there were three audio tapes, and there were three audio tapes of the channel that the, US Air Force police used on one of the nights of the incident.

And so what this actually proves was that the US Air Force security police routinely recorded at least three of their four radio channels on audio tape and then rewound it and started again. But you think about all the evidence that would be contained.

Oh gosh, yes.

On those audio tapes and be able to work out it as well. But nobody like Colonal Holt, Colonal Williams. None of the senior people have ever admitted that. Says to me, they’re trying to control the agenda. Oh, absolutely! Uh, the story. And so, putting a long story short, there were two legitimate sightings, of entities.

And the second one. What Larry Warren always said was, in his book Left at Eastgate, he’d said, three, initially, one, like, bubble. There was no doors that opened or windows, but something he said, akin to a bubble slipped off the fabric of the shimmering in the field. And within that bubble, the bubble divided into three bubbles. Right. And within each of the bubbles was the upper torso of what looked like a child in a bunny suit, like Casper for the Ghost. And they were small and they were, and there were these bubbles that were floating beside the craft and there was some kind of silent communicate, possibly telepathic between the base commander there and these three entities there. So they’re entities. Now, Larry Warner called them entities, whatever.

 Adrian Bustenza was there. He was part of that. He saw that. But he had great difficulty calling them entities. So he called them. I saw silhouettes. The most he could say, because he was religiously fanatic. But he just got up and he said, I saw silhouettes. But they’re legitimate. But this second sighting, which was filmed on video. So where is that video?

Hmmm, good question!

It’s totally denied. Colonel Holt says, no, no, there was no. Interestingly, if you read the book, you’ll know that Colonel Holt admitted to a MUFON researcher, a Mutual UFO Network researcher, called Ray Boeche. In April of 1985, 6 years before he retired from the US Air Force. He admitted to him verbatim that Colonel Williams was there, security police was there, and that he was filmed. He admitted that. He did. And Holt was there as well. And Adrian Bustenza since he said, yeah. Holt was there as well. Holt was always denying this. But 1985 he had admitted it. Before he became this TV person. So I think that’s a really important admission.

One thing about your book that really impressed me was the detail. And the research and the sleuthing you had done to find the people. Interviewers, transcriptions.

Yeah. It’s a nightmare.

Hours and hours of , research you did.. I can only just imagine. But I have to say, I have never had a good feeling about Holt. And that was reinforced for me, cause, I read Larry’s book years ago, yeah, Left at Eastgate, thank you. And my opinion of Holt was really reinforced when I spoke to Stacey. He just was very disparaging of Holt. He said Holt only came in a couple of days after things began. And he was only there for the glory he says. There’s an interesting thing in the book, actually, one of the people that was part of his team that went out into the forest. Was a guy called Sergeant Monroe Nevilles. Now, Monroe Nevilles was not a security place officer.

He was what was called a disaster preparedness officer. And if you think, he was a guy who was like, trained to deal with nuclear biological weapons, that kind of thing. And they’d all go to him for training on those issues. He actually worked for one of the squadron commanders called Colonel Ted Conrad. And on the night when Holt is supposed to get involved, when I interviewed Monroe Nevilles, he said something really interesting. He said that he’d been at home on what initially he said was Sunday. And then he said it was a Saturday afternoon, tea time, four o’clock ish, when a Lieutenant Bruce England turns up his door.

And Colonel Conrad. I’d asked him to call round to Monroe Nevilles house. Pick him up and see if he would go into the forest. And make an assessment of these alleged UFO reports. Now, a lot of people never really put this into context. But when I interviewed Monroe Nevilles he told me that when he’d gone out with Lieutenant England into the forest, they too, just the two of them had a UFO sighting as well. So that’s one of the 17 that I listed at the end of the conclusions. And most people aren’t aware of it. And then, when that incident finishes. That’s when they go to supposedly the club where there’s a function, went on. A Christmas party.

And over the years, Colonel Holt has been the one that’s said, oh, and yes, Lieutenant England came in and he said spac and I said, what’s spac? And he said, UFO. And he told like a story’s being retold. Monroe Nevilles said a different story. He said that we’d had our sighting. We went back to find Colonel Conrad. Because that’s who we worked for. So he went to speak to Colonel Conrad, and he told him that they’d had a sighting. That there were depressions in the town from a landing. And Colonel Conrad had said to Monroe Nevilles, do you think it’s worth further investigating? and Monroe Nevilles had said, yes! So he said, okay, you go back out there. And, do some more research, basically. More investigations. And Colonel Holt hadn’t been involved in this process at all. And actually, Colonel Conrad confided to Monroe Nevilles that he didn’t really want Holt getting involved at all. Because he said Holt was a bit of a like hanging out with the police and he liked the action. And he didn’t want him getting involved.

So anyway, just as Monroe Nevilles is about to leave his lieutenant England, he’s approached by Colonel Holt who says, Can I come along with you? Now that’s not quite the same as leading a team and taking down. Yeah. And because he was a sidekick. And he’s the deputy base commander, lieutenant colonel, high rank, he couldn’t say no to a lieutenant colonel.  So he said, yeah, okay. And at that point there, that’s when Holt gets involved. But that’s not quite the same story that Colonel Holt has told in 50 or 60 documentaries over the years. That made him like Colonel Conrad says, you go take charge. That’s not the story put out by that. Now, interestingly, as soon as Munro and Nevilles Published that in what was the UFO Enigma, which was Jim and John’s book. From that point on, Colonel Holt has then started criticising Munro Nevilles saying, oh he wasn’t very good, blah, blah, blah. And he’d never done that for years. He’d always praised him. But as soon as he’s told that story, which I suspect is the truthful story that we can hear, Colonel Holt was very negative to his comments about Monroe and Evans, and I believe Monroe.

100%. I always got the impression that Holt was there practicing to provide the narrative there.

As the book concludes, the narrative has been controlled liberally, in my opinion, for the last 25 years. And really, only four people have controlled every documentary ever made. Basically, which is Colonel Holt, Jim Penniston, to a lesser extent, John Burroughs, and Nick Pope.

Yeah, interesting.

It gets a chapter in the book, he has a very unique role, in Rendlesham. And he’s been very influential as the world’s go-to-guy in shaping how the public view the case. Or not view the case, as you may suggest. And those four people have controlled it. They pretty much control who gets on in every documentary ever made. And that’s wrong. Because as you’ve seen in my book, I talk to lots of other military witnesses. And their story is well worth being filmed. Oh, gotcha. Nobody gets to hear about them. Yeah. Because the narrative is being controlled. And that’s what I’m trying to do with the book is to try to say, look, many more people were involved. I’ve spoken to many of them. These people are good witnesses. They should be interviewed.

Yeah, I think your book is awesome. What you did is such an amazing job. Usually I can read books really quickly. I’m a very fast reader, a speed reader. And I retain what I read. Your book took me ages. It actually took me a few weeks to read, because I, would read it and then I’d go back.Yeah, because there’s so much detail in there, and that bears witness to your years of being a police detective and being in the military.

That’s nice to hear, from my point of view. That’s what I try to do, is to make an investigative book. Actually a lot of people, both the researchers who’ve read it and reviewed it, and the kind of reviews that I’ve had since it’s been out on Amazon, they’ve said it’s a bit like a thriller.  Which is not how I, you don’t think of a factual book as a thriller. But they say it reads a bit like a thriller, which I guess is really nice. And I guess people have enjoyed it. But yeah, I never set out to make it a thriller.

Yeah, it’s just the way you’ve laid it out, it’s good. I’ll tell you one thing that really… Made me so angry. And I thought what gave them the right, was one part in your book, when you talk about the British bobbies that were there in the forest and were taking photos. And had their camera confiscated by American police on British soil. On British soil!

Absolutely. And that would have happened because as much as Colonel Holt was trying to say, I never. Adrian Bustinza says it’s Colonel Holt. And they take the cameras off and they hand it to Colonel Holt. Who puts it in a plastic bag. Now, Holt totally denies this. But I know who my money’s on, and it’s on Adrian Bustinza. And we then have this, for years and years, this debate whether the British police were there in the forest. And of course there are two reports. Legitimate reports that were made and where the police turned up. The British police turned up. But they’re never actually involved in any. Whereas Larry Warren said the British police were there at the side of the field. They’re watching the incident that he’s involved in, which is now being corroborated by Sergeant Adrian Bastinza.

When I interviewed Sergeant Adrian Bastinza, he says, I’m at the staging area where all the vehicles were. When this vehicle comes in, it’s possibly having a siren or a big light. And it goes bee bop. The American sirens went, woo woo woo. So, very distinct. And I remember that, because I was in the Air Force from 83 to 89, so I remember those old British vehicles that went, bee ba, terrible. The sound would really call me. That’s compared with the Americans that sounded really quite safely. It sounded like Hawaii 5O, kind of thing. But we are, we just had a cheap bee ba. But interestingly, Larry Warren, the original military whistleblower, had said to me that he’d heard an audio copy of Holt’s audio tape. Where, in the background, it goes, bee ba. Now, I’ve not heard this! And so I’m thinking, yeah, okay, I’ll try to look for it. But anyway, eventually I found an audio copy, and I was back to actual written evidence.

Because the guy who had done what is arguably the first and best documentary made to date, which was the CNN special. It was filmed in late 84 and released in early 85 over three separate nights. And the investigative reporter for CNN general news network was Chuck Decaro. Now in a series of research notes, the MUFON investigator Ray Boeche had sent me was this single sheet of paper, which was a one page of the transcript of many pages , of the incident from Holt’s audio tape had been transcribed. Alright? I Just had this one page, but here on this was in brackets, and it annotated by Chuck Decaro, the lead investigator for the documentary. And in the brackets, in the speech, it went Bee ba. So there he had actually positioned it in the transcript for me to account for. And sure enough, when it comes there, you have a very distinct Bee ba.

And then when I brought this up with , Ed Umberston he says, yeah, a British Police vehicle turned up at the staging area and Lieutenant England. It was was part of that team with all actually went across and spoke to them and said, turn that off, blah, blah, blah. Now, nobody mentions this ever. This was absolutely new! Which confirmed and corroborates what Larry Warren had said. He said, that on at least one of the nights, possibly this fourth night that we now know about, that the British police were there. And I suspect that this is the fourth night. of consecutive activity. Which we didn’t know about until Sergeant Adrian Bastinza had said, no, it’s another night with Larry. I think it’s that night when the British police, he tapes it.

Yeah. Very interesting. It just really made me angry. What gave them the right to confiscate stuff on British soil from British policemen?

By the same token, within days of the incident beginning, the forest trap that were public lands owned by the British. Were cordoned off. And people used to take their dogs for a walk, or cycling, or whatever. It was a very popular area. And the many civilian witnesses will say they saw British police vehicles alongside us air force security. Police vehicles were off their jurisdiction, blocking off these tracks into the forest. And they were told, oh, there’s some incident blah, blah, you can’t go in the forest. I am absolutely convinced, based on a number of people, that that is actually true. That people, British people, were not allowed to go to the forest because they’d basically blocked it off. But the Americans certainly didn’t have the jurisdiction to do that. Yeah. And the British didn’t either.

 So there’s a lot of lies told. There are!There’s a lot of lies told. And this comes back to controlling this narrative. There was only so much that the Americans wanted to say. And don’t forget, for almost three years, they denied everything. It was only when the Memorandum came out, and the big, there was a big tabloid newspaper headline, UFOs land in Suffolk, and it’s official. And that was like a big double page spread, and it went around the world. In 1983, it was as viral as it could get. And it’s picked up. Internationally, and that’s what elevated the story of Rendlesham to be known all around the world. But until then, the Americans had denied it. But in that newspaper report, it printed part of the Holt Memorandum. Which hadn’t been found until basically Larry Warren had said, I’m willing to put my name to it and say I was a direct witness. When they didn’t know the Freedom of Information Act. In America, because they said we’ve got a named witness.

Suddenly they find this document that disappeared for three years. And that’s how it comes out. But in that document, it’s an amazing document. It’s still historical and Holt was directly involved. So he’s an important witness because he basically said. On one night, there’d been a landed triangle craft, gave measurements. And then two nights later, he, the lieutenant commander, the UFOs were allegedly batting before us, he led a team out, and he saw multiple UFOs himself. And he signed that one page document.  It’s pretty amazing for somebody who has the right to do that. So that’s why it’s famous. However, when the ramifications of that document coming out, it was never meant to go public. Holt had been told it will never be released, and then suddenly it was. Now, Colonel Williams, when it came out, was interviewed by James Fox many years later.

 And I think he was in the documentary, I Know What I Saw. And basically it looks like James Fox has caught up with Colonel Williams who is now in retirement.. And it looks like he’s just had a round of gold and he’s got his arm leaning on his vehicle. And it’s just a quick, almost a non interview where he just asks him a couple of questions. But one of the things that he said was he talked about the memo. And Colonel Williams said that the memorandum wasn’t supposed to be released, basically. And when it did, It left us in a difficult position. But we have to admit some things that we wouldn’t have gone there earlier on. And as I worked on the book over the three years of writing it. Five years five and a half years of research, three years of writing. That’s a long time. That clip came back to haunt me time and time again. Because what I realized, what Colonel Williams was saying, this document should have not come out. And it led a life of its own. And couldn’t put Humpty back together again.

So there’s no choice but to admit that there have been. Two incidents, because there was an official U. S. Air Force document outlining those two incidents. However, what I came to realize is that anything you didn’t have a piece of paper for, we’ll deny it.  Anything else, you didn’t have a piece of paper, we’re going to deny it. So all the interrogations. Interrogations that happened to at least four or five of the witnesses.

Thank you. I was going to bring up that next. Yes.

They were recorded on an audio tape. They gave statements. You, uh, certainly Adrian Bastinza signed a three page statement. I asked for it afterwards, never got it. Where’s that statement? It’s not, there’s never been one release. A number of statements were released that I talked about at the beginning of the book, which is very poor. Um, Jim Penniston said he did a statement and it wasn’t quite the same as what he got. Edgar Banzack, who was the driver for Jim Penniston, said he put in a statement and he never saw that again. And he was told, no, sign a different statement. We saw the lighthouse incident later. The lighthouse is pure fiction. Always was. In the book, I actually blame the media. The media were complicit in keeping this case down and still aren’t, and they’re still complicit as with the American media, but certainly the British media played their part in dumbing the case down, controlling the narrative and not really allowing proper investigation to occur.  Sorry, I put you off.

No, not at all. No.Some of the major witnesses also taken away and interrogated. And used sodium pentathol on. Against their will, obviously. Which is a pretty horrific thing. And I imagine some of them still have scars from that.

The two that definitely mentioned that and Sergeant Jim Penneston, who’s like the first night witness. And, uh, Sergeant Adrian Bustinza. He didn’t get injected, but he was threatened with it. Larry Warren, the original military whistleblower. He was given the like truth serum. In the book, I think arguably one of, if not the most powerful page of writing in the book, is actually a transcript, where Adrian Bustinza describes his interrogation. And I remember when I was proofing the book. What I tend to do is I read speeches back. And I read it like that and give it feeling that as how he was turning it over. And now we put it over on the audio and it was palpable, his fear!

And there’s one particular page, I forget what page it is, its in the chapter on Bustinza. And he’s talking about his interrogation. He said, here I was a sergeant. I’d signed, to fight for my country, protect my country. And I was being treated like a criminal. I he was being strong arm either side. Sit there. He was treated like a prisoner. He’d done nothing wrong. And he said, you saw the light craft. I said, I didn’t see the light craft. He was told, bullets are cheap. And his life was threatened. And he said, when they said that, I was so frightened. And he said, he wanted afterwards to go AWOL. He wanted to run away from the Air Force. He was so disgusted. And several of those people, at least Penniston, Warren, Kubanzak, Adrian Bustinza, were given terrible treatment.

Hmm it was awful…

By multiple interviewers. We’re not quite sure who, which lead to the Air Force and Special Investigation. Larry Warren said that he was interviewed by a British guy, so if he was through British involvement, I think Patterson say it’s 14 or 15 time in the event, the situations that are. Some of them were given a really hard time. And that is unforgivable for just doing your job. You’ve done nothing wrong. And it’s supposed to be protecting your country. If you’re proud and then suddenly being treated like a criminal, I think not enough people talk about the significance of those. terrible interrogation. Colonel Holt actually has made comments saying that they were treated harshly. He later found out that they were treated harshly. At least he said it, and that’s important. And there’s no excuse for treating people like that. And in other incidents, UFO incidents around the world, we know that other intimidations and interrogations take place at times in America. So it’s something new.

Now, another thing that You brought up in your book, which actually Stacey spoke to me about, was the gentleman who had the downloads, the binary downloads that he wrote.

You’ve read my book, you will know my opinion. Jim Penniston was clearly a witness to that first night landing. That’s not in doubt. Where I have a problem with the binary codes is the very misleading comments that he said in the days when it emerged. And I make a big slap about it. Because he tried to tell people at the 30th anniversary conference in Woodbridge, which is not far from Rendlesham. So we’re talking 2010. And he basically says, I’ve had this download of information. I think it’s gibberish. Why haven’t you told us this? It’s 30 years down the line. He’d been retired many years. Why couldn’t he have told people by then? He’d been asked, he appeared in lots of documentaries, he never mentioned it. And then suddenly, he’s telling the audience that he’s had this. And he thought it was gibberish, didn’t know what it was.

Now on the face of it, it sounds plausible enough. When I actually did a transcript of that, it was interviewed, conferenced. That two hour content, or part of it, was recorded on video. And I got hold of a copy of the video and I did the transcripts. And at one point. He’s told the audience, who weren’t aware of this. That he can’t say too much because he’s doing a documentary for Ancient Aliens. And he’s been given a message. And he basically says, I don’t know what it is. Just zeros and ones that came out accidentally. And, and basically I don’t know what it meant. But at the same token in the transcript, at one point he says, and this is totally missed by the audience. Because they’re still stunned by him saying that 30 years later, he is telling a new bit of evidence.

So they’re still coming to terms with that. But he’s actually on stage. And he actually says, and it’s completely missed by the audience. That he did find out. Banned records were mentioned in 1994 when he’d done the hypnosis. And that Linda Moulton- Howell had mentioned, done a transcript in a book, ‘Glimpses of all the Realities’, which he come out in 1998. And that was completely missed. But how can he say, I don’t know what it is? What it was? And then be saying in 1994 that it was. He did find out. Now, he was still on video. Now you telling me that if you’re into unhypnosis, you don’t watch the video later on? Especially if someone says, something really strange came out. Wouldn’t it be curious and go, well, wonder what that is?

You would think so.

And he says, no, I wasn’t. Even if he didn’t, by the time it comes out in 1998, it’s in black and white. And one of the things that kind of is puzzling, is that it says in the partial transcript in Linda’s talk. It says under hypnosis, someone is saying, sure, what we’re talking about, the binary code. Have you seen the binary code? Now this is done under hypnosis. So this is not open record. This is done under hypnosis. And it basically, somebody has asked him whether it’s intelligence agents in his memory of that under hypnosis. But they mentioned, have you seen the binary code? That says to me he could have had an implanted false memory put in there about binary code. So that puts the red flag up.

And then 11 days after that conference, 11, 12 days later, you just say, what turned out to be quite significant with a podcast show. Radio show host called Angela Joyner. And it’s a very good interview. I remember the first time I heard it, and it’s an American interview. At times, his answers are right all over the place.  And I would advise anybody to listen to that interview, because her reactions are like, Yeah. You said this, she’s trying to get her head around it. You can clearly tell that she’s befuddled, but when you do the transcript, he’s basically saying. I knew what message was straight away. I saw what he told the audience 12 days earlier. Oh yeah. I knew when I touched that it was time travel machines.

Really? You didn’t say that. There’s lots of things that are inconsistent. And for me as a former detective, the biggest one that stands out is if you’d had. And I’m not saying you can’t have, download of information, I think you can. But in this particular case, I’m suspicious. Because if you’d had that, if that had happened to you, for example. Or it happened to me, and it was the only time in your life that you’d have this kind of auto writing experience. I think I know how many pages of auto writing I would have done. But not Jim Penniston. Because first of all he said it was 6, then it was 8, then it was 9, then it was 12, 13. Now it turns out that there’s 16 pages. That just jars with me. Because I think I would know.

 It’d be such a unique experience. And even if he hadn’t have known how many pages he wrote, at some point somebody would say, how many pages is that? And then he’d go, eight. And that eight would have stuck in his mind forevermore. He’d only had to do that search once and find out how many pages there was, and it would be stuck there, because it’s so indirect. It’s such an unusual troll. And for the fact that he kept changing the pages. Numbers just don’t sound right to me. So for me, I’m very dubious about the so called binary code. Personally, if I was to put money on it, I’d say it didn’t help.

The reason I brought that up was because Stacey said to me, after his experience, when he was on duty at the East Gate. I think I’ve got his name right, I hope I did.

Michael Stacey Smith?

Yes. Yeah, he’s in your book with Lori at the end. And he said to me, he was telling me of the physical effects, that his body had been left with after his experience. But he also said that he had been downloading mathematical equations and stuff like that.

Yeah, he did. When I spoke to Michael Stacey Smith, he had had a precursor case in July of 1980. A really good case. And where he basically been at RAF Woodbridge. Close to the East Gate. And he, I think he just went out to relieve himself. He then sees this beach ball-sized object moving right to left just on the outside of the perimeter fence where he was made. So he takes cover. He’s got a big M60 machine gun. It’s like the Rambo. Big heavy machine gun. And he’s like cocked and ready to fire. And that’s because he called for backup having seen this object. And an airman went towards the fence. Towards this red, glowing object. And that’s when he cocked his weapon. Because he said, basically if anything had happened to the airman, I would discharge my weapon. 

That’s, so he had a very interesting, precursor case. And then, of course, he told me about Lieutenant Ronnie Chandlin, which we could maybe go on to in a bit. But with regards to the download. He felt afterwards, after having that experience in July, within minutes, he said that he hid away from the object. Because he was frightened. Yeah, and he was only 19. He took sanctuary, in the middle of nowhere, and he was still on the base. But he basically kept himself to himself, and he said like, he only revealed a little bit, into that – that he had had some…. But he wasn’t really confident to talk about it. And he knew nothing about it, but he said he’d received some information. Hence why I say, I do believe you can have downloads, but you need to be consistent. And he wasn’t really ready when I talked to him. To talk about that in any detail.

So I didn’t push too hard and I didn’t include it in the book. Because he wasn’t comfortable about talking about it at that time. So you respect the person that you’re dealing with.

Absolutely.. I actually felt really sorry for him. He was obviously in a bad place, because… He’s been, he’s very ill at the moment.

Yeah. He’s very ill. What he thinks is illness is caused by radiation. And, uh, I certainly suspect that he should be seen by other people who have been seen like Jim Penniston, John Burrows. They went to the VA and got compensation allegedly, for their injuries caused. Now, I think Stacey said should have the same.

Oh hundred percent. Honestly, he’s a nice guy and he’s not well, really a lovely man. Honestly, my heart broke when I spoke to him because like I said, it was just spur of the moment. So I had nothing prepared. Yeah, and he, I think he might have been, had a a bit to drink and so he was a bit more relaxed. But honestly, it just broke my heart and he was just left. No support afterwards.

Yeah. And he lives in a very rural area, very much on his own a lot of the time. And he’s, I think he struggles health wise. And who wouldn’t? And we’re living in a strange time now where potentially we could have disclosure soon. I was going to … And he should be somebody that’s embraced as being a victim. Yes! And deserves medical treatment and the best support he can. He is a victim like many of us. All the people who are involved around Rendlesham, whether they’ve played a big part, a small part. They’re all the victims of some trauma on their normal sphere of knowledge, uh, whatever it was. And it certainly wasn’t man-made. In the conclusions of my book, not one of the instance, the 17 time difference incidents that I lay out. That never been laid out in that timeline. 17 different time instance, separate time.

None of those been described by the witnesses as anything conventional. And these people have talked about, well, it was holograms. Not in 1980, I’m sorry. No, no. Not in all different parts of the forest. Not for days on end. Or it was a certain plasma weapon. Maybe one or two could have been, but not 17. All in all, these kind of stories. Oh, it’s the East German or a Polo that came down. Or it’s Soviet. Maybe as a one off.  But it doesn’t explain the other 16 or 17. You see what I mean? If there had just been one incident, then you might say, yeah, maybe it was a cover up of an East German spy or a Russian Soviet crash. But not when you have 17 different incidents. All in different locations. In and around the twin bases.

At one point. I speak to a guy called Airman Steve Longero, who’s a smashing guy. 30 year law enforcement career and military career. Absolutely strong guy. And he said that he, again, just arrived on the base there only a few days on shift. When he is on a routine, one of his first shifts inside the weapon storage area. And he’s been told to walk around with an experienced airman, possibly a sargent. Somebody who’s experienced in the way how it works in the weapon storage area. And he said, we’re in there and walking out with our rifles, M16s, when suddenly they see a UFO. Near the forest that then shines a beam down into the nuclear bunkers.  We’ve heard stories and rumors. Never had a first-hand witness. You talk about David Grusch and people say, oh, he is not a first time witness. Steve Longero, first time witness. And he sees a UFO shining a beam down into the weapon storage bunkers. And it then proceeds do like a grid light search, 200 meters long search, of all the buildings, looking, as if it’s scanning for something. What’s under there?  And it’s looking for the amount of nuclear weapons, in my opinion. Can’t prove it, but I think that’s why they turn up numbers and have got this interest in the weapons. Colonel Holt on the very first night in May 2007 said there were more nuclear weapons in [inaudible], then anywhere else in Europe.

 It wasn’t the fact that that they couldn’t hold nuclear weapons, it was a nuclear base. I found a document that’s in the book that listed 25 nuclear weapons. But I suspect it was hundreds more that were illegally held underground. And a lot of people in Britain thought they were in different locations. And I think that’s why they can never admit it. Because they don’t have an armament agreement.. At the time of the world crisis, people again don’t realize the context of Rendlesham. At the time of Rendlesham, why do UFOs turn up? Imagine you’ve got this illegal stack of extra nuclear weapons. UFOs and nuclear weapons had been something of interest for 70 – 80  years. There’s got to be some correlation there.

And at the time of Rendlesham, late December, 1980, there were two world events taking place. There was the rise of the Polish shipyard workers and Lech Wałęsa, who went on to become president and revolutionary. That was still a part of the Soviet Union. In late December, 1980, hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops were massing on the borders of Poland. And if you remember your history, because you’re young like me.

Ah, Thank you!

The Soviet Union had put down rebellions in Hungary, in Czechoslovakia. Sent the tanks in, quashed the rebellion. It looked like they were going to do it again. So again, high tension. And then of course, we also had the Middle East, powder keg, taking Iranian hostages. Being held by the Iranians. Or 52 Americans being held by the Iranians. So there’s a powder keg there. So to me, why do they turn up at the time of world crisis? Possibly World War III scenario. They turn out and they’re thinking they could not be there. Yeah. In my opinion, nuclear inspection by UFO.

It’s been some of the whistleblowers, certainly in the Stephan Greer, first press conference, talked about they had their nuclear weapons shut down by…

Oh yeah, well Robert, I met Robert Salas several times. and he was the guy in 1967. Malmstrom Air Force base, basically 10 nuclear missiles were shut down. And he was the guy underground, 80 feet underground,  who had got the duel-key system to start World War III. So you can’t have more of a credible person as Robert Salas. And he recently gave testimony to the Brazilian Senate in June of last year. I, and he were the only two foreign speakers to the Brazilian Senate. That was a big honor. And then of course, since the arrow office, the all domain anomaly resolution, we now know through the whistleblower legislation passed in late 2022. He has since given his testament to Aaron. Now the question is when will he get called as a witness in further congressional hearing? Yeah, some debate there. And this is why he said to you, he just had a very, a much better hearing .

Yeah, it was excellent.

 It and it has stores reverberation. Yes. It’s not caused disclosure yet. But it’s opened some doors. And if we have three or four more before the end of this year, and more revelations come out. And more witnesses come out, like first time witnesses like David Shlomo and Ryan Graves, then we’re not going to be far off. Because the press are just beginning to get an inkling that they may well have been deceived for 75 years. And I’ve never seen a time with so much UFO interest as now. So we’re close.

It’s very interesting. And what I haven’t told you, but I’ve been in experiencer my entire life. Since I was three. I have conscious interaction with Star People.. And one of the things that they did tell me in late eighties, early nineties was that, those who currently control the world narrative about them. Have been told that they had to release the information about other intelligences off of this planet. They were given a timeframe, and if they didn’t, the choice would be taken out of their hands. They…

yeah. So now, were you actually given a time frame of when that would occur?

No, they didn’t give me a timeframe, but I’ve watched particularly over the past three to five years how they’ve been drip, drip feeding bits out and how they’re changing. They’re using social manipulation to change people’s attitude. Before the press used to be really derisive and derogatory towards any witnesses.

The stigma was ingrained, deliberately, obviously.

Yeah, absolutely.

And now the attitude has changed when they report on these things. They no longer are derisive. They’re not putting music on, they’re not, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, then you’re having some serious discussions now. They’re not laughing anymore. Yeah. And obviously with the testimony that David Guresh has given, you’ve still got some of the mainstream trying to fight against it. And they don’t give the whistleblower or David Grusch the credibility that he has. They’ll just say military veteran intelligence, especially when they don’t say that he’s qualified up to presidential level. He’s as high as you can go. He’s as good a witness as you could ever get. They don’t say that. So that context leaves their audience thinking, Oh, he’s just another guy. Exactly! And he’s only telling stories. It’s hearsay. Not when somebody like him comes out. And plus, he said, I interviewed 40 people over four years and several of them have given testimony, tried giving testimony to the inspector general.

Those are the people that now need to really start to go on to the stand. Because if those people know the risk of perjury, five years in prison, or something like a 10,000 dollar fine. But they’re at risk of five years of imprisonment if they lie. Which is again, not really emphasized. Those people who are first hand testimony, if they give their testimony, in a secure facility, a SCIP as they talk about. And as mentioned by David Grusch that he couldn’t release too much unless he was in a totally classified SCIP environment. But that needs to happen ASAP because if what he said and claimed is true, as I believe it is. And all the people who were directly involved, crashed UFOs, retrieval programs, and then reverse engineering, gloves, trying to make them work. That is dynamite. And that needs to be the first thing that happens. The summer recess in Coleridge, Senate, that needs to happen ASAP to as many Congress people who are able to get in and hear the classified things that you have to say. But no, he was very detailed. He signed all the times, the place he runs them, and we still run them where they’re located. Yeah. And he’s willing to give it. Yeah. But he can only do it in a classified environment.

But you’re right. And what you’re saying is, and I’ve been saying it for a while over this, certainly over this last year, I think there is something driving this run to a disclosure. Which we’ve never seen before. And I think we’ll see that something happened behind the scenes with them. Like you said, possibility that says you’ve got until then to get it out, else we’ll do it. And I’ve been saying for a while, the Americans have lied. They’ve really been the bad guys in all of this. The intelligence community, they’ve lied to the public and the world for 75 years about this. So there’ll be a backlash against that.

The media are complicit, albeit at the highest level, not at the general level, but at the highest level. They’ve been taken in by the lie, whatever they were playing, they were taken in and they played a part. The decisions by government cannot alone affect everyone. It’s the media that basically puts everything across and gets into the minds of people. It’s not the politicians, it’s the media. And they did the bidding for the government. Maybe they thought they were doing it for the right reasons. But, we’re at a point now that when it all comes out, there’ll be, at some point, backlash against journalists. Backlash against the intelligence community. You could argue justifiably, because of the lie and the ridicule and the stigma . And people have committed suicide, had their lives ruined. And the victims that were ridiculed, uh, pilots, military or whatever, the young airmen. All of those infected post trauma and told that it was nothing. That is wrong.

But where to move on for me is to have truth and reconciliation areas. Like they did for apartheid in South Africa. And we get those people involved in the lies, to go on the stand. Under oath, and say, what part did you play? Now, as David Grusch spoke about. If money has been illegally diverted from legitimate funded projects, to go to projects, then that’s a different matter. Those people should give their evidence. And if there’s found criminal involvement, they should be imprisoned. Like anyone else. But, it shouldn’t be a witch hunt. What we want is to establish just exactly what was known. What your part was. Thanks very very much your testimony. We can now write that is true. Because there’s still so much you don’t know.

But I have been saying for a while now with this driver, what’s driving it. Is, if we had the Phoenix lights now, which occurred in 1997, the world is a very different place now. Because the technology has improved so much. People have 4k, 8k mobile phones, high quality. You can now have social media that can start live streaming and everything. If there was a shooting outside your bedroom and in the street and it was broad daylight, there would be some people be looking out the bedroom. They’d be filming it. They’d be live streaming it, and this footage would turn up. Imagine if the Phoenix lights happened. It was tracked for over 200 miles.It’s described as being boomerang shaped. A mile to mile, wingtip to wingtip. It stops over. People on the journey before it even stopped over Phoenix. Would be live streaming it. Once that live streaming happens and all the great feeds and videos start to come in and you realize that it’s not just a hoax.

Once that happened, the TV would be live. Helicopter’s would be up there. Everybody’s trying to get in on the story and you could not contain that event now, if it happened. What happens is they know that UFOs are for real. Something has happened in the background. Be it communication or something definitive has been found that has convinced them we can’t hang on to this anymore. But I suspect that they now fear them showing themselves .Without them giving their side of the story first. And I think that’s why there’s a rush to do that. There is a, there’s a pace to this that seems a little grounded. And Chuck Schumer, I think it was the 14th of July, just before the hearing, went forward having never made a public comment in office about UFOs UAP. And suddenly introduced a bill for Congress to vote upon, which has been voted on since and passed. And it was called the UFO, UAP Disclosure Act. Now, for people like you and me who follow this subject for a long time, this is like science fiction. So, the legislation is there in black and white.

And as a former police officer, I was used to having to learn bits of legislation and know how and legal speak, drive and work. There’s really been a lot of thought about what is being said. But in that legislation, which was then, when he spoke about it, proposed legislation. He mentions over two dozen times, non human intelligence. And why, can you imagine where that’s changing? Why is a politician who has never publicly said anything about UFO and then suddenly he’s introducing a bill? A law, to sign, to be signed off by the president in late December of 2023. It’s unprecedented, and it echoes a lot of what David Guresh is saying. I think, behind the scenes, if we know that Guresh gave his testimony for 11 and a half hours. It was done a while ago, and all the people, first hand witnesses have come forward. I think Chuck Schumer has had a classified briefing that said it’s real, but we have got these programmes, first hand witnesses, blah, blah, blah.

So he’s thought we need legislation. And what they’re saying is that within 60 days, I think it is? Anything that has gone out to aerospace companies. To the American aerospace companies, has to be handed over. Whatever they’ve done. Whatever technology they’ve managed to get working. Whatever craft that they possess, be handed over to the Americans. So, this is unprecedented times. Something is driving it. But I personally think that something has happened. And could well be right, that they said, either you do it by a certain time, or else, we may give a demonstration better on your terms than ours.

Yeah, absolutely. When my contact said that to me and they didn’t give me time because they don’t work on time. Time doesn’t exist outside of this reality is what I’m continually told by them. But they did say that humanity had to reach a certain waking point where there were enough people questioning.

Yeah. And I think we’ve close to that –

Oh we reached…

We just started to open the door. If we have three more hearings by the end of this year, there’s a real possibility by the beginning of 2024 that we’re into disclosure. And you’ll know when it happened. Because it’ll be 24/7 seven on every news channel, every day, like COVID.

I fully expect along with that, that they will bring out some extra-terrestrial representative and say, this is so and so from somewhere.

Well, in fact, so much about everybody says it’s the biggest story in history. And it will be, slowly and not alone, if it’s extraterrestrial. Yeah. But. The, I personally don’t think, even if we get this voted, I don’t think we’ll ever know the true extent. Or it’s unlikely we’ll find out the true extent, of all the secrets that the Americans have.


All the experiments that they’ve done, and all the stuff that they’ve done. Clearly, a lot of it is illegal because money’s been diverted into these programs. There’s no Senate Congress oversight.

That’s right.

And the intelligence community should work to the Congress and the House, and they’ve been a law unto themselves. And I think presidents have been denied the truth. Yes. But it’s about time Congress takes over. And that’s why, in a sense, full of admiration for Senators Jim Burchett and Alan Berlina Luna, because it takes a certain kind of person with real strength of character to say, there’s something wrong here and I’m going to go after the truth. And we’ve never had that that in public office. Yes, you’ve had lots of politicians who’ve expressed this interest, but nobody that’s gung ho. Nobody that would stand and say, I’m going to get to the bottom of this. And I really am going to do it. And you’re not afraid to say the Pentagon, you’re lying.And it’s brilliant!, we’re just watching it going. Yes. What? Yeah. Say it. Yeah. And, and we never have that really, anybody fight it to the truth. And I think it’s first hearing was so important. For the public, it wasn’t for the U. S. law committee, as much as we’re watching it. It was really for the public and the media who were thinking, is there a hint to this? And Lovell Graves, and David Shaw were fantastic. You could not have got a better result than what happened.

So now, even the media, they’re talking about cubes inside spheres and tacks, 40 foot long with no wings. We knew that because those people have been interviewed before, many times about their respective incidents. But the general public, 95 percent who don’t believe this, who’ve been led a lie all their lives. So they, 95 percent of people and politicians and business people don’t have a clue what’s about to happen. And so that’s why there is so much that the world will be in shock. And it can take a while for people to accept it. And I do think that they’ll need to release videos. Yes. Luis Alezando has took, a 23 minute video. Broad Daylight. Taken by a fighter pilot, in broad daylight. And he’s in his cockpit there, and the object is there. And that kind of thing I think needs to be released, because people, we live in a world of fake news.

And I think people will need a lot of convincing. But certainly if politicians get into a skiff with David Grusch, and he tells them, and then other people confirm his story, who are direct witnesses. Then you’re in to disclosure then. It’s really not into disclosure until one, the government had fully admitted it was about Non-Human intelligence. Two, the media hear that. The media needs to hear the president say we are dealing with Non-human intelligence. He can say we don’t know what it is, blah, blah, blah. We tried to reverse these things. We, we can’t even switch them on, so,  it may well be something like that. But they, and I think that the media are starting to realize that they’ve been only, I don’t know, they’re getting close to the next hearings if more witnesses get shunned, when they learn about nuclear missile shutdowns.

 Again, we don’t know all the stories, the public won’t, and the media won’t because they’ve had a clawed mind to it all. And when they start to hear about nuclear missiles being shot down in Ukraine. Former Ukraine, a facility having 10 nuclear missiles switched on, into launch mode. When those kind of stories filter into the media and the public who are just generally looking in. I think it will be a lot more interesting next time. More interesting. That’s when you, it starts to get to a tipping point where people are going, Wow! Seems to be real. And then they’re just waking up to it. But I think there will be a big shock period for the next, as and when it happens. The first year or so, may be quite difficult. The world’s not going to stop. There’s not going to be looting. We live in a very sophisticated world now. Most opinion polls will say that there’s over 50 percent believe now that the government hiding stuff. And down the line, after a period of anger and resentment at the lies, there’s got to be a structured way to get over that, which I recommend the truth and reconciliation, based on the apatheid era.

I think we have to do that and I think we move on because as vice president of ISA, the international coalition for extraterrestrial research, this is not an American issue. This is a worldwide global issue. And unfortunately because so much of the world has relied on America regarding the UFOs, they’re looking to America now in a sense for a lead as to what to do. Because all these are the countries that have been literally [inaudible]. Then they’re going to find out that they’ve been lied to. The bottom line is, as the truth comes out, we have to come together as a human race. And not as as one country against another. There is only one human race and this is a global issue. And some people will be frightened. I suspect that 20 percent of the public will be traumatized. Like COVID lockdowns. Nobody envisaged people getting mental health trauma from being locked down for long periods. I think there’s likely to be a plethora of people who are severely traumatized by this news.

Because they’ll fear that they’re vulnerable, which technically we are. Something flying around in our air space you can’t control it. We would argue in the subject of being around for 75 years, at least. And there doesn’t appear to be an overt threat of an invasion. So they’re not a threat, per se. Technically, they’ve had to change the goal post, get it into the media. And I understand that. They’ve turned it into an air safety issue. Yeah. And branded it to make it more easy to talk about seriously. And that if I still argue with us, because I. I believe some UFOs are extraterrestrials. But nevertheless, I can understand why they changed it to UAP. And why things have had to go along air safety. Because it doesn’t make sense. You can’t have something flying in your air space and have near collisions with these things.  And you don’t have safety issues?

So I understand all that, but we have to, once the story starts coming out, we have to get out against people trying to say it’s an invasion. I don’t believe that at all. If they wanted to invade, they could have done it a long time. I think that, again, going back to that description I gave earlier. I think we’re like the Great Barrier Reefs. They come here just to watch us in our habitat. And I think they don’t like nuclear weapons because they probably live in our deepest oceans, the rock bases. And if we go to nuclear armageddon, mutually assured destruction, then it affects their bases in the rock and destroys, pollutes the planet. So I think that’s why they don’t like nuclear weapons. If somebody, say ditched billions of tons of oil on the great barrier reef.. Everybody would be up in arms – Oh it’s an area of great natural beauty, blah, blah, blah. Maybe we’re that area of great beauty. And maybe they see that nuclear weapons could destroy this beautiful, oasis in our part of the galaxy.

Not only that, but it bleeds… the nuclear energy bleeds through dimensionally. It goes into other dimensions as well. So it doesn’t just affect us. I don’t know about that, but it may well do not doubting. That’s what I’ve been told. That’s information that…

And it can well do. I think power of nuclear weapons is such a destructive force. I think perhaps intelligent civilizations, many years older than us, quickly concluded that nuclear weapons can destroy a beautiful planet. They’re too dangerous to let’s get rid of. Yeah, and I think, and ultimately they said, well, actually you can have free energy. Get rid of your nuclear weapons. We’d all jump for joy and get rid of fossil oil fuels and climate change and all that kind of affect to the climate. So there is a lot of positivity of things. Of learning new technology. We enter that age old questionnaire, we learn what are our origins? Maybe we’re seeded from Mars. I actually think that’s as plausible as anything else.

If you had a dying planet, what would we do? We’d go to our nearest place. The moon and try to colonize it. And go to Mars to try to maintain the human race. We know that Mars had an atmosphere much like Earth billions of years ago. It’s older than the Earth. We know that something catastrophic happened. It lost its atmosphere. It lost its ocean. If it was technological, what would happen? If you’re on the brink of disaster, you’d go to your nearest planet that was similar. Hence why we may have been seeded from Martians. Purely. Plausible that to me. It’s the only thing that we would do in an event, an extinction event. To try to save some of our humanity.

Yeah, absolutely. We’ve got way off the subject of your book, but it’s been really…

Last two hours and that’s…

Really fascinating. So back to your book, let’s finish up with your book because it’s such an awesome book. It is so… Well researched and presented.

That’s very kind of you to say that.

Oh, no, I’m quite fussy about UFO stuff.

I’ll pay you later.

That’d be nice.

But no, I’m humbled by the comments that people have passed on. Yeah it’s really awesome. And Gary, I applaud you for all the work that you’ve done on that and putting it out there.

Would you like to tell my listeners where they can obtain your book from?

Any social media websites, et cetera, that you have.  I’m the founder and editor of UFO Truth Magazine, which is a PDF. It’s not it print. It’s an easy ninety six pages. Goes all around the world. It comes in a PDF, bi monthly. So that’s every two months you get a copy sent to your email address. All you have to do is go online and put UFOTruthMagazine.co.ukThe book itself is 500 pages, and it’s only available at the moment on Amazon. So Amazon, New Zealand, Amazon, Australia, UK, or wherever Amazon is. You download it and it ships within 48 hours. It’s 17. 99 pounds per UK. I’m not sure what the equivalent is, but whatever the currency equivalent is.

And as I say, it’s 500 pages. And a lot of people say that it should become a definitive book on the case, including many researchers, so, grateful for that. And hopefully that will be the case. But yeah, certainly it’s only available on Amazon. I am going to try to get a mainstream publisher. I deliberately did not. So I self published just to get the truth out. Yeah. Now, with all the great reviews from researchers. I think I can now go back and show you a potential bestseller here. Because I think, I don’t have the marketing skills, the distribution skills, the distribution network. It would be nice to think that other people would get to read it.

Oh gosh, yes.

If people want to come up with ideas and if they know publishing houses, that might be interested then by all means. If you like the book, then email me at heseltinegary@hotmail.com.   All lowercase, name in reverse. Couldn’t be easier but I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come on your show. I’ve enjoyed it and hopefully you’ve enjoyed it.

I have, it’s been really awesome.

This is the most exciting time in the subject. I’ve ever known. This topic continues.

Oh, I believe it will. And one last thing about the back engineering, and I meant to say it when you were talking about it, but we’ve got sidetracked.Is that this is when they talked about it and they’re hearing is, absolute vindication for Lazar, Bob Lazar.

It is, what he said, that there were recovered crafts and there were X number of models and blah, blah, blah, is almost certainly true. There’s still going to be a debate as to whether he was directly involved.

But I think a lot of people think that he was, now that, with everything that’s coming out. And it would be good to get a final answer on that, if people say, yeah, I worked in blah, blah, blah. That would be good from his point of view. I would have a little side story here is that in later life, I got to know Stanton Friedman. We met up at conferences. We got on. And I think I had lunch with him when we were at conferences. So we’d often talk about this.

He was always very quite onto the Bob Lazar. But I would say. Yeah, no, I see what you’re saying and you can’t prove his background, blah, blah, blah. I said, but he always comes across as being very compelling to me. And I said, you really don’t give a monkey whether you believe him or not. And I said, I like that about him. And he said, well, I’m keep telling me how it is. And so for me, I don’t know the answer, but I’ve always found him quite compelling. And it would be good to get a definitive answer on that. But I’ve always thought that we’ve done a grassroots program on what is likely to be true. It’d be nice to get an answer on that. And it would be good for Bob Lazar to get that vindication.

Yeah, absolutely it would. Thank you so much for your time, Gary.

In this episode, we’ve delved into the mysteries of unidentified aerial phenomena. UFOs explored government secrecy and questioned the very fabric of our reality. Gary, your passion and dedication to unraveling the unknown have truly made this episode an unforgettable experience for our listeners. To my listeners, your curiosity fuels the heart of this podcast.

If you enjoyed this journey into the extraordinary, don’t forget to subscribe. Share and connect with us on all social media. We’d love to hear your thoughts and stories. As we wrap up, a massive thank you to each one of you for tuning in. Your support keeps me inspired and motivated. Until our next exploration, stay curious, stay open minded, and keep seeking the mysteries that make life so incredibly fascinating.

Once again, thank you, Gary Heseltine, and thank you, my wonderful listeners, for being a part of the Walking the Shadowlands podcast. Until next time, take care and may your curiosity continue to guide you on your own extraordinary adventures.

This is Marianne bidding you farewell from the Shadowlands.

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