Episode 111: Echoes of Eden

Kia ora, hello everyone. Welcome to our new listeners and welcome back to those of you who follow my podcast. It’s great to have you all here with us today. If you have been following the past couple of episodes of the Walking the Shadowlands podcast then you know that in this episode, I welcome back a Shadowland’s favourite guest, to talk about the follow-on book to his last two. And the last of this trilogy that explore the theme of who created humankind.

In this conversation we continue where his previous book The Scars of Eden, left off. And as with the two previous books, this book takes us to many different places. One of the areas he talks about in our conversation is the terminology “close encounters of the fourth kind, or third kind”. There are many of you listening who may have heard the term, but not necessarily know the different meanings of the stages, of the close encounters terminology. So, allow me to take a few minutes to explain this to you all.

In the field of UFO research Unidentified Flying Objects, or as they are called by the world militaries today UAP’s (Unidentified Arial Phenomena), the term ‘A close encounter’ is an event where a person or group of people witnesses a UFO. This terminology first was suggested in a book written in nineteen-seventy-two by J. Allen Hynek, called The UFO Experience: A Scientific Inquiry. He actually suggests six categories. I’ll go over these briefly for you all:

  1. Nocturnal Lights: or lights seen in the night sky
  2. Daylight Discs: These are UFO’s seen during the day and generally oval or saucer shaped. Of course since then there have been many, many different shapes observed, including some that actually seem to change shape as they fly.
  3. Radar Visual: These are UFO reports that have a radar confirmation – such as with the famous New Zealand Kaikoura lights incidents. These can offer a harder evidence from professional sources that the objects are indeed there. Although sometimes these can be discredited as atmospheric propagation anomalies. Or, swamp gas is a favourite term that used to be used. Not so much these days!
  4. Close Encounters of the First Kind: These are visual sightings of a UFO, generally from less than 150 metres, or 500 feet away. And that show an angular extension and a large amount of detail.
  5. Close Encounters of the Second Kind: This is a UFO encounter, where the witness observes or has some kind of physical effect from. Such as, a car or electronic device stops functioning, animals react. Or, a physiological effect such as burn marks, or radiation symptoms in the witness. Or, some physical effect like impressions in the ground, scorched vegetation, or chemical traces.
  6. Close Encounters of the Third Kind: These are UFO encounters in which there is an ‘animated’ entity or being present. These can include humanoid beings, robots, or human types who seem to be the occupants or pilots of the UFO.

Since Hynek created these six levels, there have been subsections added to the close encounters of the third kind scale. Seven actually – but, I won’t go into those. Then also, two other close encounter definitions have been added by other researchers onto Hynek’s scale. These are:

  1. Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind: This is a UFO encounter where a human is abducted by a UFO, or it’s occupants. Although researcher Jacques Vallee argues that this fourth kind should refer to cases “When witnesses experienced a transformation of their sense of reality”. So, it also includes non-abduction cases, where there can be hallucinatory or dreamlike, or even out of body experiences associated with this encounter.
  2. Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind: This is where the UFO encounter includes direct communication between the experiencer and the occupant, or occupants of the UFO.

Those are the scales currently used in UFO / UAP research today. And having given you that little bit of information are you ready to walk into this part of the Shadowlands with Paul as our guide? Then let’s begin.

Paul Anthony Wallis

Born in Buckinghamshire, England, my guest Paul Anthony Wallis enjoyed periods of life in Bath, Nottingham, Portsmouth and London. As a youth he commuted for a 10-year period between the UK and Canada, later settling in Australia. His travels have included horse trekking in the depths of the Grand Canyon and the heights of the Himalayas, swimming in the Amazon, parachuting in Australia, and surviving a charging rhinoceros in Zambia – along with more peaceful pilgrimages to Egypt, Zimbabwe, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Germany, Switzerland Belgium, Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, and Kashmir.

His studies in language, linguistics, and theology took him to the University of Bath, England, the Machiavelli Institute in Florence, Italy, St John’s College and the University of Nottingham in the UK and to Brazil’s Instituto Pastoral Regional in Belem, Amazonia.

Paul is a popular speaker, researcher, and author of books on spirituality and mysticism. Today his work probes world mythology and ancestral narratives for their insight into human origins and human potential. And for the releasing of our potential for a better, more conscious, human experience. He is the author of the International Bestseller Escaping From Eden. Which was hailed by George Noory, as “This generation’s Chariots of the Gods!” Paul’s next book The Scars Of Eden was endorsed by Erich Von Daniken. Paul hosts The Paul Wallis Channel on YouTube and co-hosts The 5th Kind TV  in partnership with GAIA TV   I would like to welcome my guest Paul Anthony Wallis.

Echoes of Eden

Marianne: Paul, I’d like to welcome you back. It’s wonderful to have you here with us again. I really enjoy talking to you, and I know my audience really enjoys our conversations.

Paul: Oh, Marianne, I enjoy them, too. So thank you so much for having me back.

Oh, it’s wonderful. And I just finished reading your newest book, ‘Echoes of Eden’. Which I have to say, your books always go in a direction that I don’t sort of expect, which is really great. And it makes me think and it still makes me question, even despite knowing what I know. In your first two books, you talked about in Escaping from Eden and in The Scars of Eden, which I’ve played before this episode. So, if any of your listeners haven’t heard them, then I suggest you go and listen to them. Because, this Echoes of Eden is really a follow on from those two books, and it sums things up very nicely, in my opinion. In those two books, you talk about the ancestral memories of et contact in the deep past and how it’s affected us. And how you came to the conclusion that human beings were a created species by a group of beings, for their own purposes.

Yes, that’s right. Although I wouldn’t use the word created.

Ah, adapted. Yeah.

Because, my big picture is, I believe that life is the norm in the universe rather than the exception.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

I hold to the doctrine that’s called panspermia. And this is the idea that was put forward right from the beginning of DNA research. Francis Crick put this idea forward that the genetic coding for biological conscious, intelligent life is part of the Cosmos. And that whenever it lands in an hospitable environment, meaning a planet with water, it generates forms of life similar to those we’re familiar with here. So all life in the Cosmos is ultimately related. And I think what our ancestral stories show us are moments in which cosmic cousins turned up and modified the life that was here.


So it’s not that they’re creating consciousness or creating life from scratch. They’re working with what was here to tweak us and bring us into the form that we’re familiar with as Homo-sapiens-sapiens.

Correct. Absolutely correct. Sorry, I should have worded that better. I knew what I meant, but you’re absolutely right. They . . .

But, it’s nice to have an opportunity to say that because it really sets the context.

Yes, it absolutely does. And with your new book, it actually – you started out talking about being in a hypnotist session. That’s how you started the book. Maybe you could go on a little bit from there and talk a little bit about that?

Sure. Well, the reason I start the book there is that I left everyone on a cliff-hanger at the end of The Scars of Eden, and I’ve written Echoes of Eden in a way that you could pick it up not knowing the other two books, and it’ll still make sense. It’ll still pull you in. But, I teased my readers in The Scars of Eden because in the process of telling the story, I was in a process of remembering my own anomalous experiences from the past. Some of which I now believe were close encounters.

And so, through The Scars of Eden, I’m just beginning to remember fragments of things. And I reached the point of wanting to remember more. And so, Scars of Eden ends. I’m just about to go into Barbara Lamb’s office to do a regression to see if I can remember anymore. And that’s where we pick up the story in Echoes of Eden. And I share my experiences, not because they’re super dramatic. I don’t have a Whitney Strieber type story to share. My stories are more of. I can remember the first few moments of something happening. I can describe to you what I experienced.

I’m not quite sure this is what I think it was. And the reason I share these vaguer experiences is because I think a lot of people can relate to that. A lot of people will have stories that something weird happened that I’ve never quite got my head around. And probably more people have that kind of story than have the Whitney Strieber type of story. And so I want to give permission to people who have half remembered something, or not understood something. It’s always been a puzzle. It’s a story with no punchline to share their own stories. Because, I think as we pull our stories, a bigger picture will begin to emerge. It will give each other permission to share those kinds of experiences. I think bit by bit will work out. We’re not alone.

Absolutely. I actually like the way you did that, because, you didn’t sensationalize anything. You just said how you felt that something had happened, but you couldn’t explain it. How did you feel after you came out of the hypnotism session?

Well, I had been expecting something more sensational. So on the one hand, I was thinking, oh, I don’t have much more memory I can share with people. But then on reflection, I realized what had emerged from the session was understanding the significance of those encounters, that it had actually subtly altered the course of my life. It had turned me into someone who refused to accept pat answers and someone who noticed the anomalies. And someone who wouldn’t let the person be shut down, because they’re sharing something that’s off syllabus.

Because, I knew in my heart of hearts that I couldn’t explain my own experiences. They didn’t fit with my theology. They didn’t fit with the mainstream narrative. And so, having experienced that for myself, I noticed all the other things that didn’t fit the narrative in the years that followed. And so, it made me curious. It made me always look for the stories that are not shared, the taboo things. And without that impulse, I couldn’t have done the 33 years of church-based Ministry that I did do. Because, it absolutely defined the kind of Ministry I went into.

Absolutely. And it got you doing all this research which laid the foundations for these books, actually.

It did! I had no idea at the time, and I couldn’t see that I’d slightly changed direction because of those experiences. But I really had.

So, maybe for those who just listening in for the first time and perhaps haven’t listened to our first two conversations. Can you explain to them what your history is? Your study history that led you into this?

Sure. Well, my work background is 33 years in Church based Ministry, and that was focused on work as a Church doctor, a theological educator, training pastors in the history of religious thought. And in hermeneutics, which are the principles of interpreting ancient texts. And I worked as an Archdeacon for the Anglican Church in Australia. Archdeacon is one down from a Bishop. It’s kind of a troubleshooting role, often. And so in those roles, that’s where that aspect of seeing beneath the surface was very, very important. Prior to going into theology in Christian Ministry, my first love was languages. And I was very fortunate at school and University to be able to study French, German, Latin, Portuguese, Italian, Greek. Did I mention German?


I had a love for language. I studied some linguistics at the University of Bath very briefly, just enough to really whet my appetite. And so that meant when I came into the world of theology and into hermeneutics, I was always very energized by the questions of what did the words mean? If you want to know what the text means, what do the words mean? And I’ve discovered that root meanings, etymology, is a fantastic way of peeling back layers of cultural accretion and association. And get back to the heart of the text of what it might have been saying. Before we turned it into a religious text, before we decided we all knew what the writer was talking about. What did the words mean? And it was that kind of work that led me into the world of paleo contact.

Right. That’s absolutely fascinating. And it absolutely prepared you for this when you got to the stage where you were led onto that path. And in Echoes of Eden, you certainly laid out the original meanings of a text later in the book. And I won’t go into it, because, it’s later in the book, but it just gives it a totally different meaning. And it’s absolutely beautiful. It’s just a totally different meaning altogether.

I think there are some words, unfortunately, that it’s very difficult for us to read them in our translations without interpreting them via the historic religious doctrines. So, if you find a word like that means punishment or consequences, then very often we read into that text the church’s doctrine of eternal punishment, eternal conscious torment. And it’s not in the text. Or you read a word like ‘kingdom’ and, well, that’s a feudal order with the King at the top and everybody else meekly obeying. And you discovered no, you might just as equally translate that as realm. Which makes it an environment to be explored. A place of discovery. And these translation choices, I find tremendously exciting because you make the switch and a different story emerges. And it’s not a random story, I find ,that emerges very often. It’s a story that lines up with ancestral narratives around the world.

Absolutely And that certainly is what got you started on this journey to begin with. In Escaping from Eden and the term, Elohim, Elohim, I’m not sure how you describe it?

That’s right.

Yeah, I find it incredibly fascinating. And we don’t realize the power of words, generally. We accept them at their face value, mostly, but sometimes they have quite a deeper significance than we’re aware of. And you certainly bring that out in your books, when you go over them.

Well, that’s true. And for a lot of Bible readers, for instance, what they encounter is the translation that they happen to have on their shelf. So they may be reading twentieth century English words or sixteenth century English words, and that’s where it stops. But as soon as you buy a couple of translations, you can see, oh, there’s something else going on because they’ve rendered it slightly differently. I wonder what the original is? And so I encourage people to get two different translations of the Bible, and that’s going to send them on a journey to drill down into what did it mean before it was translated into English?

And we’re very fortunate that with the Old and New Testament, the Hebrew and the Greek texts, we have so many early manuscript copies. That we can go back to, very confidently ,to the early text and say, well, that’s what it said in Greek. So what does that really mean? Or that’s what it said in Hebrew. What does it really mean? And I’ve been very excited to pursue that word Elohim, as you mentioned, which is the Bible’s oldest word, that gets translated as God. The root meaning is the powerful ones.

Then you’ve got other exciting words like echie, which we have a direct equivalent, really, in English, it means life form. And Ezekiel talks about a life form that looked like a human being, one like a son of man, as the English translation. But, once you say life form that looked like a human being, you realize he’s a little bit more fascinated by something he’s never seen before. Then it’s quite apparent. And then you’ve got other words that indicate technology, tub, which means the goods or the heavy equipment, or ruach, which is some kind of a craft that creates water, seas of wind or cavod, is a craft that moves around. And Ezekiel describes what it looks like, what the textures are, how it sounds. And these are words that five hundred years ago, a Bible translator would have had no technological framework to describe. So, we know what a wormhole is, but they didn’t. So, they talk about a ladder that allows you to go from here into deep space.

Or in other cultures. You go to the Edo narrative from Nigeria, and they’ll talk of Osana Boa, the Almighty one above the waters, descending from the heavens, on a chain. And again, they don’t have portal, wormhole, stargate language. They compare it with a ladder, they compare it with a chain. And as I began to see patterns like that, I realized that many of our ancient narratives are reporting a visual memory. It’s not a book that’s gone around the world and been retranslated. It’s not a story that’s gone around in Chinese whispers. You can see when you put them alongside each other that different cultures in the deep past have seen the same thing. And then ,they found their own language and metaphor to describe what it was our ancestors saw.

That’s what I found so compelling about your books. Well, one of the many things I find so compelling about your books. Is the fact that you go into ancient histories of many different cultures, particularly in the African region. I guess that’s because, you know, that’s part of your own personal history. But, you go into all of them, not just Africa. And you go into Native American, or just all over the world. And every single culture has similar –  like you were just saying, stories where they explain in the best way that they know how, the same experiences pretty much.

Yes, that’s right. I mean, Echoes of Eden almost has the feel of a travel book.

Yes, yes.

Well, you’re travelling around the world, and everywhere you put down these similar stories start emerging. And they’re not the stories you would find in the mainstream news, or in a school textbook. They are at the level of folklore, the Indigenous narratives. And when you keep hearing the same stories repeat all around the globe, from different cultures. Who in the deep past have no contact with each other, it gets your attention.

It certainly does. And I love the way that you’ve managed too – like, you talk about – oh, I had to write it down – ‘weaving all these threads together to make a rope’. And these threads have been legends and traditions and stories that have been handed down from different cultures. But, they all come to the one point, pretty much. The one thread. They all create the one thread, which is just really cool.  I’ve, I’ve written a few notes here. In your first two books in the series, Escaping from Eden,  The Scars of Eden, you talk about the ancestral memories of ET contact in the deep past. But, what do you think is the connection between ET contact and human potential?

There are a few ways it connects. First is in the story of our development as a species. If you read Plato, he talks about humanity having been evolving happily on planet Earth. And then receiving visits from cosmic neighbours who genetically modify us and upgrade us for higher consciousness, and higher intelligence. So Plato said, that’s absolutely part of the human story. And that fits with other ancestral narratives around the world. Where their stories of first contact are not sort of Mars attacks, invasion of the body’s, natural stories. They are stories of people coming from other regions of space. And they name the regions of space. Sitting with their ancestors and nurturing them in the beginning, teaching them how to live as a civilization in balance with the planet. So there’s that connection there.

And there are stories of particular upgrades that you can find in ancient narratives. Genesis Three, which we’ve often referred to as the fall in classic Christianity, is actually about an upgrade to human intelligence. If you go to the Popol Vuh that contains the Mayan story of Origins.  And it – I love that version because it’s very frank about the difficulty the genetic engineers had in getting us right.

And the experimentation went on for a long, long time to create a species like us, back into animal history. Because, that story says that not only we, but the apes who live in the forest are the outcome of this sequence of experiments. Finally, they get to us. But there’s been a bit of fine tuning to get us this intelligent, but not too much. And they overshoot the market some point where we are too conscious, too intelligent, and therefore too hard to manage. All they wanted, apparently, was a working class. And they found they had a Homo sapiens that could do future viewing, remote viewing, and telepathic connection, and really great self-healing, and that was difficult for them to handle.

So they have an emergency meeting working out how to downgrade us. And what’s interesting about that storyline is that the method they choose to downgrade us is not to alter our DNA again, but rather they introduce something into the environment to downgrade our intelligence. It says they sprayed a vapour over human populations

I remember reading that.

. . . which would not brain damage us irrevocably, but shut off our ability to access higher cognitive powers. And there’s a really interesting, specific note in the Popol Vuh about what they meant by that. And they say that there was a time when our ancestors before the downgrade, had vision that was not limited in the way ours is.

So you think about how our vision is limited. We are limited by surfaces. We can’t see into things, and we can’t see behind things. Our vision is limited by distance. We can’t see beyond the horizon. We can’t see into space. It’s limited by time. We can see the present. We can’t see the past. We can’t see the future. It’s limited by frequency. We can only see this range of light slash radio waves. Our pets can see another range. Our cats can see another range. So what would it mean if our vision wasn’t limited in those ways? Not limited by distance? Well, that’s what we call remote viewing, not limited by surfaces? That’s what we call X ray vision. Not limited by time? That’s what we call precognition. And so that hints at what the specific higher cognitive powers were that we had before we were downgraded. And that downgrade is there in the Greek narrative. It’s there in African narratives as well. And the positive take home from their telling of the story, is that we all have these higher cognitive powers. Often they’re just in the off position.

And so cultures all around the world have always had mystical and shamanic protocols for switching them back on. You go to a traditional healer and they will have protocols for doing that. So that they can diagnose you and help you and support you in your journey, and they might help you achieve the same thing.

That reminds me of that story you have in the book where this gentleman is sharing his experience of going to a shaman for healing. And the shaman approached him on all fours like a . . .

Like a hyena.

Like a hyena. I found that absolutely fascinating. And for listeners, this gentleman was actually quite scared of the shaman. Because, I guess it’s the way he approached him. And the shaman sniffed up his body until he got to the area of the body that this person was having, ah difficulties with. And then he threw up. The shaman threw up, stopped. Then he continued round the other side of his body until he got to the same area, did the same thing. And the result was that the gentleman went back to see his doctor. He had severe kidney issues.

That’s right.

And the doctor wasn’t expected to last for a long to be on dialysis or something? Did I have that right?

Yes, that’s right. When his doctor in LA diagnosed him, this is Lionel Friedberg. He gave him ten years to either be dead or on dialysis. He went to this traditional healer in Zaire and describes this terrifying experience of shamanic healing. But the outcome was , is that 35 years later, Lionel is fighting fit and full of energy. And it sounds bizarre when you describe what the shaman was doing, but what he was doing, the meaning of his actions is that he was trying to tune in to what the entities around Lionel were telling him about Lionel’s health and what needed to be done to address it.

And you go to Shamanic healers, like that one in Zaire, or the Nanga that Lionel went to in Zambia, and you find out that healing is actually a contact modality. That the shaman is expecting to get information from other entities and then respond to that, in finding a treatment for you. So that’s really intriguing.

And to go back to your question, it’s not just about information. It’s about intelligence as well. And I share some stories of people who have equally frightening experiences that are contact experiences. And when they return from them, they have information they didn’t have before and higher cognitive abilities they didn’t have before. And I have a couple of different examples in the book because it’s such a widespread pattern. When people share with me their close encounter experiences, they are even more nervous to tell me another aspect of the story. And that is, often that they had precognitive dreams in the years after their encounter. Because, something in their brain has been activated that was not active before.

Right. That actually particularly reminds me of that woman’s story was a mess. Maybe you could share that?

Yes, that’s right. This is a friend of mine. Now. I do anonymise some of these stories to protect the innocent in the book. And so I talk about this lady who was a friend of a friend in Sydney, and my friend was a priest, and he had known her for a long time and had known her as an artist. She was a brilliant artist. You would instantly find her paintings compelling and attractive. But then, as she explained them to you, you’d realize there were these phenomenally precise, mathematical patterns built into the art. And you begin to realize this is a real work of genius.

So, my friend had known this artist for many years and was helping her to move house one time. And he was moving some piles of books and dropped a pile. And when they fell open, rather than having sketches in them, they were full of advanced mathematics, page after page of complex equations. And he was so fascinated by this, he just sat down on the floor and started flicking through them. And he’s not a mathematician, but he could see the pattern that they would start with a range of data and propositions.

And then as you flip through, it would boil down to these simple, elegant equations. So he understood that this requires phenomenal mathematical ability. And when the lady discovered him reading the book, she was a bit embarrassed. And then she explained that when she was 15 years old, she had a close encounter of the fourth kind. When she came back from this contact experience with an ET being, her mind was full of advanced mathematics. It had been full of it ever since. And it had informed her entire artistic journey. In all the years since, she’d never spoken about it because who do you tell a story like that, too, and not expect to be laughed at? This was how my friend discovered it.

And that pattern, it fits within a broader syndrome that’s called acquired savant syndrome, where higher cognitive abilities can be knocked on by accident through a stroke or a brain injury. And it’s a real world phenomenon that’s researched by real peer reviewed neuroscientists. And they asked the question, first of all, what are higher cognitive powers doing in our brains in the off position in the first place? And can we switch them on without a brain injury? And our shamanic and mystical traditions say, yes, we absolutely can! We have protocols for that. And as I point out in ‘Echoes of Eden’, I applaud the neuroscientists who work in this field who are pointing out something that we cannot explain. That seems absolutely bizarre. But, there is another aspect to it, which is the close encounter story, acquired salvage syndrome through contact.

Yes. Isn’t it fascinating? Absolutely fascinating. And well, there always are things in your book that I relate to on a personal level as an experience. And one of the things was going out on the bike into the forest. I never went on a bike into forest, but I have recollection of being in classroom settings, learning things. 

Yes. Well, this is one of those memories that resurfaced in the writing. I was having a conversation with Barbara Lamb and Mary Edwards, who have produced a really beautiful little book called ET Friends in Space. And it’s a picture book designed to help families whose children have had close encounter experiences. And they’re very childlike pictures. So a child will connect with the pictures and say something like, that happened to me. Well, tell us about it? So it’s a wonderful gift to families who are wrestling with these experiences among their children.

And they were flicking through the pages with me, and they came to one page, and there is a picture of this boy who in the middle of the night has sneaked out his house, jumped on his bike, and he’s riding off into the forest. Where he’s going to have an encounter experience, classroom experience, as you just said. And my jaw dropped when I read that because I suddenly remembered that at a young age, I suppose I would have been nine, ten, eleven when this started happening. That’s exactly what I would do in the middle of the night. I’d sneak out the house, get on my bike, sneak down the side of the driveway. So, I didn’t make any noise on the gravel. My mum and dad would be watching TV, thinking I was safely tucked up in bed upstairs. And I’d cycle off, barefoot into the forest. And I have no idea why I used to do that? And I have no memories of class time. But, when I saw the picture, I thought, now hold on, I’m part of a pattern here. What’s this about? And then as I mentioned that to some friends of mine in this kind of field, they said we used to do exactly the same thing. And like me, they don’t have memories of classroom time. They just have memories of, they cycled out into the forest. Can’t quite remember what happened next.

Wow. And it’s really interesting. When I first met you, I knew that you were a contactee. I knew that you had – and I think I probably mentioned to you offline that I felt that this was the case. So it’s really interesting, to see how this is developed for you. And it’s a very common thing for those who are experiencers to recognize, or to feel the energies of fellow experiences. It’s like a soul connection. It’s really hard to explain.

Yes, that’s right. It’s funny, because you did pick it up. And at that time, this was when I just published Escaping from Eden. A lot of people who are contacting me for coaching would ask me the question, Paul, have you had a close encounter experience? And I would say no, but I have many friends who have. But the more stories I heard, the more patterns I began recognizing and thinking, hold on. I had five experiences when I was twenty years old, but at the time I tried to squeeze into my worldview boxes of God, the devil, angels, demons, animal, vegetable, mineral, human. And I had no other boxes for the kaleidoscopic universe to fit into. So, when I had a strange experience that was negative, well, that must be demonic. When I had a strange experience that was elevating. Well, that must be Angelic. But the more stories of close encounters I heard, the more I realized I had some boxes missing. I should have had a box labelled Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind, because, I think I had three of those in that year and two experiences of missing time.

Very interesting. Very, very interesting. And you don’t go into experiencing great detail, apart from mentioning that you saw a figure and that figure just observed you, is that correct? Do I have that right?

It was five figures that were in my flat in Bath. I lived just outside Bath at the time. And I could see them clearly enough to know there were five of them. I could see them clearly enough to know they were looking at me. They were strangely sort of translucent looking. I couldn’t see clearly what I was looking at. I knew they shouldn’t be there. And I would say they were about the height of a year, six, which is a height that repeats through the pages of Echoes of Eden and relates to other people’s encounter experiences.

Right. I can actually relate to that. I mean, there have been times when I have seen star people, but, they’ve been translucent. I could see them, could see their outline, see the shape, see the shape of their eyes. But I could also see through them. So it’s like they were just kind of phasing into our dimension. And I kind of feel like that’s what you experienced.

Yes, that’s right. It could definitely be an interdimensional experience. It could also be with physical entities that are somewhat cloaked.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

I wondered if that’s what it was?

Oh absolutely! They’re certainly capable, more than capable of doing that. Now. I want to go back in your book you say that  – and I don’t want to go too far into this, because, it’s quite painful for some people. And it kind of goes into political things, which I sort of don’t want to go into, too much. But, you say that through the centuries, government has suppressed the traditional stories and initiation traditions of, of native cultures. And I’m thinking specifically of the native American here. But, and the Australian Aboriginal and.

First nation, Canadians as well.

Yeah, and the Canadians. Sorry, I lumped them more together my fault. Yeah, Canadians, Americans and Aboriginals in particular. But not only them, any native culture, actually, where . . . That’s being colonized, they’ve done exactly the same thing. Why do you think that is? And why do you think that the powers find the information that these cultures hold as threatening?

Oh, yes. Well, that is a fascinating question. When you look at patterns of colonization in the past, it’s easy to see with that perspective, that the colonizing power has gone in and wishes to establish full spectrum dominance. So, it wants to be the news agency, the education Department, the police, the law. It says what’s true, what’s false. And the colonizers want to put themselves in a position, where if they say there was no massacre in that square, they don’t want another news agency jumping up and saying, actually, yes, there was. So, they have to get rid of all the other authorities, which usually means executing the Royal families and the priesthoods, of the countries they’ve invaded.

That’s exactly what happened in Central and South America, deleting the culture that was there and replacing it with Catholic orthodoxy. And that meant incinerating the libraries that existed that carried the stories from the Mayan heritage. Because, Mayan culture was book based, it was a literary culture. And they had to destroy libraries to destroy that culture. And just in case any text should survive, they had to slaughter all the priests so that no one would know how to read them. So you look back on that, it’s very clear they’re deleting the old stories, which included stories of paleo contact and higher human powers.

But the same has happened more recently. And I’m glad you mentioned Australia, Canada, North America, the United States of America. Because, across the same one hundred year period, all three countries had a stolen generation policy of kidnapping children. Not just any old children, indigenous children. Children from the indigenous families would be separated from their families. Imprisoned in youth detention centres, euphemistically known as boarding schools, brutalized.  In Canada there’s a truth and reconciliation process on, right now, that has identified one hundred and fifty thousand kidnappings. And this was state and Church working together. They’ve identified more than ten thousand of those children who were murdered by the nuns and priests running those schools.

And you see that it’s the same period across those three countries. You know, a concerted effort is being made to discontinue the indigenous traditions. The phrase being used by the Canadian process, is cultural genocide. And just to totemize it with a single story. I talk about St. Thomas in Canada who was kidnapped by two nuns when he was six years old and present in one of these schools. And the first thing they did to him was shave off all his hair. Now, that has nothing to do with teaching Christianity. You do not need to shave off a six year old hair, beautiful long hair, which has never been cut to make a boy a Christian.

What that’s about, is cutting off his connection not only with his people group, but with his higher powers. Long hair and Indigenous traditions is absolutely vital to your connection to the Cosmos, to your ancestors, to your spiritual helpers. And that’s why this was being done. It was clearly felt that if they could stop initiation for three or four generations, then they could bury all the information that initiation carried. But, what I show in Echoes of Eden is that even in the face of such brutal suppression, the information survives. And that what those people have carried for thousands of years in Australia, for tens of thousands of years, always finds a way of surviving and resurfacing.

And so you have to look at those patterns and ask, just as you did, why is this information so threatening to the powers? Why is it you can go to any century and see the powers trying to get rid of it? And go to any century and you find the information being rediscovered as the wisdom of the ages? And I think to give a short answer, this kind of information that we receive initiation, if we’re fortunate enough to have a traditional initiation, is personally empowering. It means there is another news agency, there is another education Department, and it’s a cosmic one.

And you can access information from there as well as from the traditions carried by your people. And no state wants an invisible state having to battle with, to control the narrative. And you look at what happens, the stories of empowered individuals over and against a state that wants full spectrum dominance. And it doesn’t end well for the individual. You think about Jesus, for instance, or the story of John the Baptist or the story of Gandhi, for instance. And so I think it’s about personal empowerment. And that’s why I’m so excited about sharing the information, because it always resurfaces, to empower us for our progress through life.

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And honestly, it just breaks my heart. It just upsets me, every time I think about these poor kids, their parents, their families. The pain that they all endured for man’s greed and for the need for control, it, it just is horrific.

I must say, it was very hard to write the chapter that focused on that. And when I was proofreading it, it took me about ten sessions to proofread that chapter because it is so painful, and so sad, and so dark. But, I’ve tried to space out the telling of that story through the chapters so that you can see there is another thread here. This is to do with the power of the information, power to survive, and it’s power to change us.

Absolutely. And aided by those, by those star people, who are working to help us regain our autonomy.


And so . . . On another note, altogether, you know, I have had quite a few parallels in our life. You talk about Chichicastenango, and Guatemala. Well, I actually spent eighteen months there.

How beautiful.

And Momostenango. I love Guatemala. It was a beautiful, beautiful place. And that volcano, Atitlán, just totally dominated the landscape. But, I found that when I read that, I thought, well, that’s really interesting that we both went to the same place, you know?

It’s such an important place. And you can see why Francisco Jiménez would have fallen in love with that place. It was the place where he – and he was a Dominican priest, went just at the beginning of the seventeen hundreds and was entrusted by the locals with their story of origins, which had been suppressed for two hundred years. The Spanish believed that they had gotten rid of the old narratives and they had for the most part, but a few copies had been buried for their safekeeping. And there were inheritors of the priesthood of the feathered serpent who had curated that text.

And here was a Roman Catholic priest who was absolutely sincere as a scholar, as the Dominicans were. And he followed in the Dominican way, which is of loving the people in your Parish and learning from them. And listening to them. And they could see he was that kind of person. So, the trust was there for them to say, do you want to hear our story of origins? And he said, Absolutely, I do. And he spent years translating it into Spanish because he did that. We know what the stories were that the Catholic forces tried to get rid of in the fifteen hundred. And they were stories of paleo contact and of higher cognitive powers.

Absolutely fascinating. What a good man. He took the time to listen to them and to record it.


Without forcing his dogma on them. That’s really – there are a few wonderful people like that, but not so many. As far as the domination of certain religious orders with native people, that’s a rare thing. In my opinion.

The big picture is shocking and horrible. And then there are these sparks. So you’ve got this massive institution that is colonizing the planet and trying to get rid of Indigenous traditions and Indigenous information. And yet all those traditions have individuals within them who are motivated by love. And that is really the spark that enables the old knowledge to resurface and be championed by people you would never expect to be championing again.

Yeah, exactly. So considering what they’ve done in the past, how they’ve tried to suppress indigenous knowledge, do you think that they’re still doing it today?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, in Australia, for instance, the stolen generation policy hasn’t stopped. It simply changed form. Officially, the state stopped kidnapping children in nineteen seventy-seven. But, what they do now, is simply put the schools a long way away from traditional Aboriginal homelands. And I won’t name names. But, we did have a Prime Minister, a couple of prime ministers ago who announced the defunding of one hundred and fifty Aboriginal, Australian communities.

So one hundred and fifty communities would no longer have medical care, or a school. And those children wouldn’t be able to live with their families anymore. They would have to move away from their elders, away from their families. To a school that didn’t even speak their language and be prepared for, the phrase was; full participation in Australian society. So it’s the same thing of wanting to separate people from the old knowledge. Meanwhile, private corporations are allowed to bulldoze and blow up areas

Sacred areas.

. . . sacred sites where you’ve got hard copy of knowledge that’s tens of thousands of years old. So, it continues in that way, for sure.

I certainly read about some of those things in Australia, about the corporations just bulldozing over sacred areas. And honestly, it just yeah, it’s sad. It’s sad that that’s still continuing.

It’s sad. And when people hear these stories, they really need to stop and ask why? Because, it’s not an accident these places are being blown up. Why is it important to the government to blow them up? What is it they don’t want us to see or hear or know about?

Yeah exactly. And speaking of governments, in your Echoes of Eden, you do talk about how and you mentioned it earlier about how we have how humans could remote view. And how that was suppressed. But in recent years, you talk about how the US government has invested millions of dollars in remote viewing. Ingo Swann, I think you talked about was one of the pioneers of that . . .

Yes, that’s right.

Of the new program?

Yes, that’s right. I think it was through six presidential administrations that US intelligence had a remote viewing Department, which year by year had to justify its funding. This was under Presidents Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, George H. W. Bush and President Clinton. Every year, those programs had to justify their funding. Only because they were yielding information with strategic intelligence value did they get more funding. And then in I think it was nineteen-ninety-five, it was shut down because a new chief of staff came in who was a more fundamentalist kind of Christian, and he regarded this as demonic, what was going on. So a bit like me, he didn’t have enough boxes to tick. And if this didn’t fit with any science he understood, then it must be demonic. So, it was shut down. Although if you’ve got a human technology that’s yielding information and strategic intelligence value, I don’t think you’re going to give it up. You’re more likely to subcontract it, which is what I think has actually happened.

Now, the reason that US intelligence developed this remote viewing Department was because it discovered the Soviet Union had one. And it discovered it at the height of the Cold War. And they knew that the Soviet Union had a world view that was very dry, not into spirituality, mysticism, woo-woo. The only reason they’d be spending their scarce rubles on this Department was if it was proving effective. And there was no way they would allow the Soviet Union to have a strategic advantage in any area at that time. So they rapidly set up their program.

Not the first time the west had had a remote viewing Department. You go back to the courts of Queen Elizabeth the first. When she established the foundations of MI5 and MI6, her Majesty’s Secret Service, the very first Department she wanted was a remote viewing Department. This was A: because she didn’t have enough money to get spies in the courts of all her allies and enemies, but she still needed to know what they were thinking, what they were planning. And she fully believed remote viewing was possible because she was a scholar of the Bible and had seen remote viewing in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. And it was at a time when these sequestered texts from out of Central and South America would have made their way into the libraries of the King of Spain and the Pope. And it was a time of great scholarship and a lot of international exchange among scholars. And as soon as QE one picked up there’s this thing out there, protocols for remote viewing. She knew she had to have it!

In Germany a monk called Johannes Trithemius had written a book about it, with protocols for it. And so the first job of our first agent in Her Majesty’s Secret Service, was to go and get a copy of that book. And work out how to make the protocols for remote viewing work. So she hired John Dee, who was her scientific advisor and personal Council. Her code number for him was double o seven. That ring any bell? And, of course, Ian Fleming knew all this when he wrote the James Bond stories. We know double o seven for James Bond, read John Dee, and for M, read Majesty. That’s the relationship that we’re looking at. And so he did, indeed, develop protocols for remote viewing. What’s very intriguing about his approach was that he believed remote viewing was a contact modality. And he and his colleague, the sensitive that he hired, called Edward Kelly, set about trying to establish contact with other entities, who would allow them to do remote communication and remote viewing. So, just as healing is a contact modality in Southern Africa, remote viewing was a contact modality in the courts of Queen Elizabeth the first.

Interesting. That’s really interesting. And, of course, it works. There’s no doubt about it. They actually made a movie about the program called, I think it’s Men Who Stare At Goats.?

Yes, that’s right. I watched it. And I was annoyed by that movie because it was really making fun of people who were involved at great cost to themselves in those programs. And very often they were people who had come across these human technologies through their experience in the theatres of war. And I reckon that I forgot the name of the writer, but I reckon he was making fun of people who were doing something that was actually quite real. That has been very costly to them personally. And I didn’t think there’s any need to do that. It is very real. I’ve seen remote viewing. I’ve experienced it for myself.


I’ve seen children do it. And the fact that our government spend millions on it tells you something. It makes perfect sense that the general story would be, oh, it doesn’t work. It’s been discredited being debunked. And that’s purely because governments want to spy on us. They don’t want us spying on them. So it makes perfect sense to practice it in private and debunk it in public.

Yeah. And I think that’s what that movie was, even though it acknowledged that it was a real program, I think it was more to put the seed in people’s mind that it was all, you know,  just a bit of a laugh indeed. Yeah.

I mean, you mentioned Ingo Swan. He did something incredible in 1973 when he remote viewed the rings of Jupiter. Now, nobody had ever heard. Everyone knew about the rings of Saturn. No one had heard of the rings of Jupiter. No scientific journals were out there saying, we think Jupiter’s got rings. Nine months later, Voyager gets to Jupiter and takes photographs of them and they match what Ingo Swan had drawn in his remote viewing nine months previous. But, he was one of the practitioners involved in the US intelligence program.

And then the year after that, Pat Price remote viewed the car that Patty Hirst had been kidnapped in and the closet in which she was being held. And then the year after that, remote viewing was used to locate a downed jet, a Russian jet that had crashed in Zaire. And President Jimmy Carter, very open. He says they couldn’t locate it with all their technology, with all their satellite surveillance, they couldn’t find it. So they went to a lady, he described as a medium, who was actually a US Air Force officer, and she gave them the latitude and longitude coordinates of where that jet was through remote viewing.

Yeah, pretty amazing stuff. And it seems like science fiction, but it’s actually an ability that every single person has.

Yes, it is.

And, you know, but they make it seem like it’s unattainable and only special people can have. But it’s an ability that every single human has.

I agree, which is what our ancestral narratives say. And I reckon every person, if they stop and think at some point they will have had a flash of remote viewing. They knew what that person was doing in another place at that time. And I just can’t say how they knew it.

Yeah, exactly. And it’s kind of been woo-wooed. Put in the woo woo-woo basket deliberately, so to stop people from trying to access this ability for themselves. So only people who are more – who question things a little bit more, are prepared to go out and search more for themselves. That’s a scared of public opinion, you know what I mean?

Yes. I think we’ve really been entrained to cringe at these phenomena. If I use a word like clairvoyance or clairaudience, the feeling that word evokes is, oh, what dodgy meeting have I wandered into? What dodgy person is practicing this? And are they really sane? And all those feelings and thoughts are there, because, we’ve been taught to think that way.


When I looked at the history, for instance, of what the British did in Ghana to silence the indigenous stories, I realized it wasn’t through violence. It was through creating that kind of cultural cringe. If you wanted to get on in British Ghana, which is Ghana between eighteen-seventy-four and nineteen-fifty, then you would have to learn to think British and speak British and dress British and Act British. And that meant distancing yourself from your mother, or your grandmother, if she was a practitioner of the old ways. If she was a traditional healer, if she did contact modalities, well, that’s a grandmother to be embarrassed by or ashamed of. Because, she’s a witch doctor, or an idol worshiper. So this very dark demonizing language is put upon those people so that you will feel a little bit. Oh, yeah, um, ugh.

And once I recognize that had happened there on my Ghanaian side of my family, I realized, actually I grew up with that exact same prejudice in England. I just knew that you should avoid the local old woman who never cuts her hair, who lives in the small cottage on the edge of the forest in the fields, and who knows what to do with the local herbs and carries the old story. Don’t go near her. She’ll put a spell on you, and she may be insane. And not much has to be said to give you that feeling. Because, it’s been said for century after century after century, you just know in your bones to avoid that person. And it is a cultural way of separating you from your own heritage.


From the information your own country has carried for hundreds or maybe thousands of years, not through fierce persecution, not through burning witches in the present day as we did in the past, but through giving you that prejudice.

Interesting, isn’t it? It’s like the tools that have been used on humanity to keep them controlled and to keep them subjugated are vast. But, the positive thing is that there are enough people, there are enough souls who are awakened – by what I mean when I say awake, I mean, they question the narrative. They question what they are being fed. They question the stories that they’re told. They just have questioning minds. And they don’t accept things at face value like we used to. Perhaps in my generation when I was younger, we never questioned any authority.

Yes, that’s right. And I think what’s lovely about the present day is if, for instance, you suddenly decide you’ll look into your own heritage. So if you’re Welsh, you’ll look into Welsh ancestral story, you’ll find the story of Tylwyth Teg, which is a story of a nonhuman presence intersecting with humanity. The moment you Google that story, you’ll realize it repeats in cultures all around the world, and you’re off. You’re off on a world tour. And your world view will be blown open.

Exactly. And I love the way that you go over that in the book towards the end of the ‘Echoes of Eden’ book. It’s beautiful. I love the way you ended your book. It’s just absolutely beautiful. But before we get to that, so let’s go on speaking about governments. Let’s go on about the NASA story about how they employed theologians to help them break the news about – like when the Pope came out. Was it the Pope came out and started saying? Or, was it Senior Balducci?

Yes. Back in two thousand and nine. You can say it was the Pope. It was Pope Benedict the sixteenth, via some very senior spokespeople, who came out and was talking about contact with ET civilization. That’s right.

Yeah. And as soon as I heard that, I knew, oh, gosh, they’re prepping people. It’s exactly what they’re doing. And then last year, was it? The Senate intelligence briefing about, relating to Pentagram’s knowledge of the UFOs?

That’s right.

Do you think that was disclosure of a form, or do you think it was cover up?

Well, I think both the two-thousand and nine colloquium of the Roman Catholic Church. I agree with you. I think it was priming people, so . . . They came out and said there’s no theological issue if we suddenly have contact with et civilizations. I thought, oh, they think something’s going to happen. So they can then say, well, don’t you remember we told you about this? And I think the 2001 Senate briefings is a little bit like that.

I think Chris Mellon, the former assistant Secretary of defence for President Clinton, and George W. Bush pushed this forward. Created the momentum for the briefings to happen where the Pentagon is supposed to inform Senate Intelligence what it knows about the UFO phenomenon. So, he was pushing it forward for disclosure. But, there’s always a push and pull. Because, the Pentagon is a community of people, some who want more disclosure, some who want less covert government just the same. So, the push was, we’re going to have these public briefings. And the pull was we’re going to give it a tiny, narrow remit. It’s only going to be nine pages long, and the seventy years of data that we’ve already admitted to in public will be excluded from the report.

So it’s got some disclosure and it’s got a lot of cover up. But, you know, even in those nine pages, there’s some interesting information. It says in that way for thin little report that US defence operations are interfered with, on average, once every six weeks by UFOs. That’s a very high rate of UFO encounters. And it also says there is zero evidence these UFOs are black Ops at home or the covert technology of other world powers. Zero evidence!  So they have officially authenticated the UFO phenomenon, which is a change, because for 70 years, the policy 72 years, the policy was debunking discrediting,


. . . training people to ridicule the whole idea. Now they said it’s real. We’ve been investigating UFO crashes for seventy-two years. That data isn’t in the paper, but there you are. So, it’s a bit of disclosure. It’s a bit of cover up. But, it adds up to insurance against disclosure. But, if suddenly it becomes blindingly obvious we’re in contact. We’ve been in contact at a covert government level for all these years. They can say, oh, don’t you remember? We did mention this.

Yeah, exactly.

But, Haim Eshed has gone further than the US went. So, Haim Eshed was for twenty-seven years Israel’s chief of space security. The Brigadier general held that position for twenty-seven years. He said on the basis of his work in that field, he should know. It’s his job to know, yes, we are in contact with a number of spacefaring civilizations at a covert government level. But, they chose not to self-disclose, until we all on planet Earth have a better understanding of what space is. Which is a very interesting turn of phrase. So, he said that! And then, there was no higher authority in Israel came out and debunked him.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, he’s gone a lot further than the US Senate briefings to say not only is the UFO phenomenon real, but we are in contact.

Yeah, he pretty much – I never thought the US would actually come out, but I always felt it would be some other country that would. Because, the US has got too much power to lose. Well perceived power to lose by being open about it. But it’s really interesting that it came from Israel. And that, oh and that leads me down a whole pile of other rabbit holes, which I’m not going to go about.

Well, it’s not only Israel, it’s gone further. I mean, Alain Chouet,

The French guy?

French security was very clear in authenticating what Luis Elizondo had said. You know, people were saying Louis Elizondo headed up a Department for ten years, briefing the Pentagon and UFO crashes? Do I really believe him? Alain Chouet said, yes, you should absolutely believe him. I was there when the body was set up. And yes, it does research UFO crashes. So you’ve had him. You’ve had Paul Hellyer in Canada, for years saying, we’ve been in contact at a covert government level. And it was, goodness me, fourteen years ago that Dmitry Medvedev, the former Prime Minister of Russia, said we’re in contact with a number of spacefaring systems.

That’s right, he did, too! I forgot all about him.

So, you put all that together. The information is out there. The problem is, that most people are simply too busy, stressed, under the pump just to make ends meet. And over entertained, to ensure that they never really pursue these things.

Yes. And they make sure that people’s attention spans these days are very short, which is why you’ve got programs like Tik Tok where you have one minute videos to keep your attention short. And so, if it goes longer, you lose focus. That’s what they’ve been training our minds for, for years. But yes, you’re right. It definitely is out there. Do you feel your Echoes of Eden does contain stories from numerous people who have had encounters? And how much contact how many encounters is going on today do you think?  And what do you think is the purpose of it?

Well, I think that encounters are widespread, prevalent. I might also almost say normal, if I can define what I mean by contact experiences, because if you say contact, people might immediately think someone’s seen a flying saucer, it’s landed, a being has come out, and now they’re interacting. People do have those experiences, for sure. That is on the spectrum of contact experiences in the present. But then if you go to contact, we were talking about the experience of shamanic healing and tuning into these other entities. We’re now at the end of a spectrum which I think many of us experience.

And in my coaching I often say to people, I’m coming to believe every one of us has an invisible team of helpers. And I’ve yet to hear somebody not say, I’m coming to believe that as well. Not because they’ve been taught it, but because, they’ve been experiencing it. Now shamanic healers talk about it. It’s actually there in the New Testament as well. In Hebrews twelve, it talks about our ancestors being present and very interested in our progress through life, wanting to support us in some kind of way. And then in one John four, the writer there fully expects the early Christians to be getting communication from entities that they don’t know what they are.

He uses the word spirits, which in some cultures that’s a physical entity. It’s not a disembodied thing, but it might be an energy based thing? Or, a disembodied thing? It might be a physical entity that communicates telepathically? It could be an interdimensional being, it could be an ancestral spirit, could be your higher self? He doesn’t say what it is, just that you should expect to be getting information coming to you. And it amazes me that he doesn’t think it’s important to work out who these entities are.

For him, the important thing is that you keep your sovereignty, you keep your autonomy and weigh up information that comes your way. Does it make sense to you? Is it helpful? Do you need to do something about that or not? You keep your sovereignty and you make your own decisions, but expect to be getting communication because you’re going to be getting some good information. And I think every person experiences these nudges, random thoughts, synchronicities from time to time that make them feel I had some help in that moment. I don’t know where that thought came from, but it was really helpful. And I’ll give you a personal example. I was doing some washing up the other day, and I was feeling very annoyed and angry and upset, with the way a certain health emergency had been managed in my part of the world. And the impact it had had on my family.

And I was just brooding over it while I was doing my washing up. And from out of the blue, this thought came to me that said, Paul, would it help if you thought about it this way? Would it help you if you saw it this way? And it completely cut across my thoughts? I had to stop washing up and just reflect on that thought and realize, actually, yes, that is helpful. That does help me feel better. That does help me come to terms with what’s happened. And I know it wasn’t my thought, cause, it totally contradicted my opinion. It cut right across my thoughts and it helped me deal with what was happening and come to terms with it. I don’t know who that was. It may have been my higher self, it may have been my deceased grandma whispering something in my ear. It might have been information in the cosmic field, but it felt very local.

Now, again, I don’t really need to know who that helper was. I know it was helpful and it helped me. And I think most people have experiences like that from time to time that say we’re not alone, we’re continually in contact. And contact isn’t just about ET powers doing deals with covert government. It’s about you and me, being supported in our journey through life.

Absolutely. And talking about that, reminds me of a conversation I had with a recent guest, a lovely chap. And I’ll tell you how I met him. It was really interesting. I had this dream and it was just a regular dream. I was just dreaming. And suddenly, there was this guy in there who wasn’t a part of my dream. He was just there and he had the most beautiful Southern accent, Southern American accent. I love the Southern accent. And I don’t remember his face. I remember he had a yellow headpiece on and his back was to me, but he had this most beautiful Southern accent.

And the next day I was speaking with Michelle Bellanger. I was interviewing her for an episode and she was talking about dream walking. Which is, I guess it’s kind of like a remote viewing in a way, where people come into your dreams. Or, you go into somebody else’s consciousness while they’re sleeping. And I told her about this dream I had. Then the next day, as I was posting my TikTok social media for the podcast, spirit said to me. Well, somebody said to me – I just say spirit as a generic. Spirit said to me, you need to look at your feed. What’s on your feed? And the first, the very first image was this really smart looking man with a beard, and the yellow headpiece I had seen. So now you need to listen to what that person is saying. So I listened to him and it was him.

 Oh. Wow!

The accent was unmistakable. Yeah, unmistakable. So I thought, okay, I’ve got to contact this guy.  There’s a reason why we were brought into contact, actually, there was a couple of reasons. One, was for my health, because, one of the things he said in this little TikTok was, spiritually, you need to make sure that you’re okay, before you help anybody else. So, that really hit home. I managed to contact him down. I emailed him and I thought, okay, I’m going to be straight up with this guy because he’s direct and I’m going to tell him what happened, how I met him, how I knew who he was. And so I just laid it all out and I thought, well, either he’s going to think I’m nuts or he’s going to accept what I say. And this guy is a Hoo Doo practitioner. He’s a Hoo Doo priest.

So he came back to me and he said, you know, Marianne, it’s really funny. He said, I’ve for the past two months, I’ve had people contacting me, wanting me to talk on their shows. Wanting me to promote this or that. And my ancestors always said, no. But, when your message came to me, they said, yes! Do it! And he was talking about exactly the same things that you’re talking about. Their Hoo Doo practice is – well one, it’s matriarchal. And two, it’s all about ancestor veneration, and listening to what your ancestors tell you. And when you were talking about, when I was reading in your book about how we have all these spirit helpers around us. How our ancestors are keen to help us, it brought him to mind. And it’s just like one of those threads in the rope, you know?

Yes, that’s wonderful. What an amazing contact. So, I mean, his invisible team was working with your invisible team to bring you two together, it sounds like.

Yeah, absolutely.

I love the ancestral aspect, that they are part of our cloud of helpers. And in fact, in the New Testament, they’re called a cloud of witnesses, which is one of the clues that they’re present. To be a witness, you have to be present. And we mentioned Lionel Freeburg and his health issues. Managing his kidney disease after he had that session with the shaman who got down on all fours like a hyena. The shaman, when he was back in his normal state of mind, said to Lionel, I want you to get a walking stick. It’s going to remind you of your grandfather. He is the one who’s going to supervise your health and your healing.

Now, this is interesting for a couple of reasons. First of all, Lionel had never met that particular grandfather. But, the shaman was saying he is witnessing you. He’s watching over you. And he’s interested in supporting your health journey. Reason number two is interesting. Walking stick. And you look at people who were the contact people for the higher powers in ancient story, ancient cultures, they always have one of these, you know,  a Shepherd’s crook, a Bishop staff.


There’s a staff that a monarch has to hold. What’s that about? That’s aiding contact in some kind of way. It’s reinforcing the power of our bodies to be aerials for consciousness, receptors of mind, receptors of thought.


And the other thing that interests me is that the idea being supported by ancestors is there in black and white in the New Testament. And it’s been completely ignored because it is personally empowering. Once again, it’s you with your alternative news agency, your alternative Department of education, your alternative Department of health, there to empower you personally in your journey.

Wow. Isn’t that interesting? That’s so fascinating. And with Echoes of Eden. It seems to me, it feels to me like you rounded it all off in the most beautiful way. And I encourage any listeners to go out and purchase this book. It’s really great. Echoes of Eden. If you haven’t got any of Paul’s books: Escaping from Eden, The Scars of Eden, Echoes, please go out and get them. They’re well worth having. At the moment, I’ve only got digital copies, but I’m going to get physical copies, because, I like a physical book I can hold. And they’re just honestly, you round it off so beautifully. Now I’ve got something here, I’ve just got to find it. You talk about – You translate that bit in your end chapter. I think it’s your end chapter? Yeah, it’s your last chapter. And you say,

“you put those words together and you have not a warning, but a phenomenal invitation which says go beyond the mind because the power, principles and people of the Cosmos are available to you, waiting to be embraced.”

Yes, those are the words of Jesus, although a lot of people might not recognize them because the conventional way they’re translating is repent. For the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. And that sounds like it’s saying you clean your life up, because, God is about to show up and you wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of him. It sounds like a grave warning. And it’s because of 2000 years of institutional religion that has presented the gospel, the good news, in that way. It’s a grave warning.

But to peel back the layers, I always say go to the root meanings. And what you just said is a perfectly legitimate rendering of the root meetings go beyond the mind, because the incredible powers, principles, and people of the Cosmos are available to you, waiting to be embraced. And could there be any more powerful invitation to explore than that?  That he began his teaching ministry by saying there’s this incredible universe to explore and then modelled for us what that might look like. And I find that a very empowering place to conclude the book.

Yeah, it was. It was really beautiful. And it just gave me goosebumps when I read it. I just felt it was really lovely. And actually, the way you ended it, that whole last few pages was just really quite powerful, Paul. I felt like you’d really poured your heart and soul into it. And it just was just – it resonated deeply on a soul level. And I don’t regard myself as a religious person, but I – those words, translated from the original meaning, resonated so deeply with me that it was just wonderful. How does it make you feel to have finished these three books? How do you feel now that you’ve finished Echoes of Eden?

It’s a huge pressure off. When I wrote Escaping From Eden, the first in the series, I was struggling with the question, oh, my goodness, these topics all join up. This could be a book about absolutely everything. How do I keep my focus? And so I just kept my focus on the question the book asks, does Genesis teach that the human race was created by God or engineered by ETS? So I let that keep my focus. But I knew that this really did go much further than that and far deeper than that. But it really was about everything.

And I knew it would take a series to give that real three hundred and sixty degree vision that results from these paradigm shifts. And so I feel I’ve done that with these three. The Scars of Eden, The Echoes of Eden. They are absolutely a set. They are a trilogy, and I think they give enough that people will have avenues to pursue for the rest of their lives. It’s not the last book I’m going to write, and there will be another Eden book.  But, these three have a very particular role in fitting together. And I’ve tried to write them so that you could read them in any order. And it will take you on that tour and give you that three hundred and sixty degree vision.

Yes. I felt like they were a complete unit, those three. And you rounded it off so beautifully. And you gave people –  what you’ve done, is you’ve given people tools to question. Even if they don’t believe what you say, the seed would have been planted. And who knows at what time that seed will sprout? And where it will take that person? I think you’ve done an absolutely, absolutely amazing job.

Oh, thank you.

It’s been like an utter pleasure talking with you about these subjects. Yeah. And even like I said earlier, before we went on air, my sister, who’s a Minister. When I told her that I was taking time off the podcast. She,  I said, I’ve got one more interview and I’m not cancelling that because it’s Paul. She said, oh, I’m so glad you’re not cancelling him. You challenge her way of thinking, and she likes that.

Oh, wonderful.

Yeah. So that’s really awesome. Where do you? I’m sure you’re having a bit of a – Well no, you’re probably not having a break, cause, you’re always busy. Where do you go from here, Paul? What’s next for you?

Well, the next book, it will be another world tour, but what I’m very interested in is the question of what was the Bible about before it became a book about God? Because, it’s layered and layered with information. It is about other things. God, is in the picture, for sure. But, there are plenty of other things going on there. What were those other things? And what is their relevance for how we live in the world today, in very interesting times? So, that’s what I’m looking at.

That sounds like that’s going to be really an interesting read as well, at a different angle.

A different angle, yeah.

Really very, very cool. But your first three books, they absolutely are the one story. This is your next book. Have you got a title for it yet? Or, a working title?

No. Eden will be somewhere in the title, but no, I haven’t finalized that.

Okay. When are you hoping to have that done by? You seem to put these out really quickly.

I have to follow my nose at the moment. It’s been one a year. I feel there’s more than a year’s worth of work that we need to go into the next one. But, I really just follow my nose. My helpers show up, I make connections with people, and the book takes on a life of its own, is what I find. So, I will be finding out as I write it.

Oh, that’s exciting. So in the meantime, Paul, where can people purchase Escaping from Eden, Scars of Eden, or Echoes of Eden? Where can they purchase your books?

You can go to Amazon, Kindle, Barnes and Noble, Hive, Book Depository, wherever books are sold. And you will find Escaping from Eden, The Scars of Eden, Echoes of Eden. If you want to get into conversation with me, because, I love dialoguing with my readers, you can find me on YouTube on the Fifth Kind, on the Paul Wallace channel. And if you want to contact me for coaching, you can reach me through my website, which is Paulantonywallis.com Anthony with an H in Wallace Wallis. www.paulantonywallis.com . And you can keep up with my research path, on my website.

Brilliant. And are you on social media?

Oh you can find me on FB. And I do get into messenger exchanges as well through Facebook.

Are you not on Twitter or TikTok?

I have a Twitter account and I have an Instagram account, but that’s where I run out of time.

Yeah, it takes a lot of time to do social media, it definitely does, so . . . But there’s plenty of avenues there for people to contact you to follow up on you. And can they purchase books from your website?

If you come to my website, then there are links there on the website that will take you through. I’ve got them all linked up to book Depository and Amazon.

Okay. Good as gold!  Oh, that’s wonderful. Paul, it’s been, as always, wonderful talking with you. And I look forward to hearing your new book, when it comes out.

Oh thanks, Marianne. It’s been a real pleasure. And I hope you enjoy a lovely rest. And I’ll see you on the other side of it.

Thank you, Paul. I really appreciate that.


Once again, I’d like to thank Paul for talking with me. And for sharing with us all his further, extensive research into who created humankind. Such a lovely gentleman to talk with and so very fascinating to listen too. I really enjoy my conversations with Paul and look forward to them immensely.

That is the last pre-recorded interview that was waiting to be published for you all. If you’ve followed me, then you know that I am taking a wee bit of time off recording interviews, including editing, transcribing, and all the other work involved in creating this podcast, due to some ongoing health issues.

I was planning on replaying some of the scariest episodes and my favourite episodes – which are mostly, but not all paranormal, in nature, whilst I have this break. I was initially following this episode, going to play the scariest episodes. At least, the ones you all found to be the scariest.

BUT, seeing as currently there are these ongoing government hearings in the US Senate, about the UFO issues at present, above and beyond what was presented last year, in the long awaited UFO military report. I felt it more appropriate to replay a couple of my guests who are more involved in this area. Starting next episode with Professor Avi Loeb, and then with a more recent guest who is involved in the US Government Super Soldier program, and my conversation with James Fox, creator of the very well-known, and well received ‘The  Phenomenon’ documentary.

I will replay the repeat episodes weekly, instead of the podcast’s regular fortnightly time slot. These all will play exactly, exactly as they first played in this podcast. I am not adding any extra bits at the beginning or ends of these episodes. Some of them are from the very first season of the podcast, so please forgive any sound issues, or technical things, as I was honestly just teaching myself how to do the editing of the episodes. And really hadn’t yet relaxed into actually voicing, recording, or anything to do with the podcast. Then, following the scariest ones, I’ll play some of my favourite episodes. . .  And then, I’ll return refreshed, healthier, and with new episodes and guests for you all to listen to, and hopefully to enjoy.

Thank you all so very much for your understanding and for simply being here and listening to my podcast. It’s an absolute pleasure, and a passion for me, creating these episodes for you all to listen to. So, this isn’t farewell, it’s simply Ka Kite – I’ll see you again!

Our bumper music this episode is called Lost Voice from Allen Grey

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