Episode 87: The Scars Of Eden

Hello everyone, welcome back. A special welcome to new listeners, thank you for joining us today. I am very pleased to welcome back this episode,  a person that I enjoy talking with very much. This guest is very well known for his previous book, that we discussed on his last appearance on our podcast. In fact, I included his episode in my four favourite episodes that I replayed as I was healing from my accident. It was the last one I played two episodes back, called Escaping From Eden.

As I was looking up some information for that episode, I discovered, to my delight, that Paul had recently completed his follow-on to his best-selling first book, ‘Escaping from Eden’, called ‘The Scars of Eden’. So I immediately contacted him. Got a hold of, and read his new book in one sitting. It was very riveting.

We reconnected to talk about this book and his further discoveries. Honestly, I was surprised that he had completed this book so quickly, knowing how long some publishers take to get books out to the general public. But here we are and I am so excited to walk back into the shadowlands with Paul as our guide, are you willing to come along and see where we end up this time? Then let’s begin.

Paul Anthony Wallis

Born in Buckinghamshire, England, my guest Paul Anthony Wallis enjoyed periods of life in Bath, Nottingham, Portsmouth and London. As a youth he commuted for a 10-year period between the UK and Canada, later settling in Australia. His travels have included horse trekking in the depths of the Grand Canyon and the heights of the Himalayas, swimming in the Amazon, parachuting in Australia, and surviving a charging rhinoceros in Zambia – along with more peaceful pilgrimages to Egypt, Zimbabwe, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Germany, Switzerland Belgium, Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, and Kashmir.

His studies in language, linguistics, and theology took him to the University of Bath, England, the Machiavelli Institute in Florence, Italy, St John’s College and the University of Nottingham in the UK and to Brazil’s Instituto Pastoral Regional in Belem, Amazonia.

Paul is a popular speaker, researcher, and author of books on spirituality and mysticism. Today his work probes world mythology and ancestral narratives for their insight into human origins and human potential. And for the releasing of our potential for a better, more conscious, human experience. He is the author of the International Bestseller Escaping From Eden. Which was hailed by George Noory, as “This generation’s Chariots of the Gods!” Paul’s latest book The Scars Of Eden is endorsed by Erich Von Daniken. Paul hosts The Paul Wallis Channel on YouTube and co-hosts The 5th Kind TV  in partnership with GAIA TV   I would like to welcome my guest Paul Anthony Wallis.

The Scars Of Eden

Marianne: Paul, thank you so much for joining us again. I’m really excited to have you back as a guest again on Walking the Shadowlands podcast. Last time we talked, last year, your book, Escaping from Eden, had come out and was doing exceptionally well. It’s absolutely fabulous book. And our conversation remains one of my favourite conversations I’ve had with guests I really enjoyed immensely.

Paul: Oh, thank you so much, Marianne, I really enjoyed our conversation last time. And thank you for having me on again. A lot has happened in the last year for all of us I think. A whole other book has emerged since last we spoke, which is one thing is

A, very good book. I sat down, I read it through man sitting once I got the chance to, you know, have some time and sit and read it and . . .

Wow. In one setting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good on you.

Well I’m a I’m a fast reader for one. And when it’s a subject that interests me and has my attention, then, you know, I’m quite focused. Now, I want to say, your last episode has since it aired, has consistently been in my top five episodes out of six seasons.

Oh, lovely.

Yeah, it’s really resonated with my listeners. And, you know, it really people are ready to hear that message, I believe.

Yeah, it would seem to be. I’m certainly I’ve heard that from other people who’ve done interviews, where they have a platform that covers a whole range of interesting phenomena. When we get on to this territory, there is a strong interest and they do see a boost in the listening and viewing figures, which I find really exciting. It means I’m writing on this topic at the right time.

Yeah, absolutely. You absolutely are. I was so excited when I was just – because I had an so I wasn’t able to work on the podcast. And so I’ve replayed my favourite four episodes out of the six seasons. And last week was your episode.

Oh wonderful, thank you.

But, by the time this gets to air, it will be a few weeks ago, but – And it got me to thinking and I was looking up your information and then I saw you had your new book out! And so I was really excited to contact you again and to one read your book to see it as a follow-on. So, perhaps, we could start Paul, if you if you want to talk about escaping from Eden and what set you on that? And then what brought you to your new book?

Yes. Escaping from Eden happened because I was very blessed with some time to spend alone, doing some study, some research and just follow some white rabbits down, some rabbit holes  Things I’d been wanting to investigate for some time. And my career has been in church ministry, thirty-three years and congregation based ministry. And a big part of what I did was training pastors in how to interpret ancient texts, the science of hermeneutics, and obviously that then gets applied to the Bible in their preaching and in my reading of the Bible and preaching from the Bible and training others to teach from it. I had over the years noted down a number of anomalies in the stories that we tell ourselves from those texts, things that didn’t quite make sense. Things that don’t work as a moral story, or as a history. You think what was going on there? And for the most part, preachers are just as busy as everybody else and they don’t have the time to go back when they promised themselves, I must go and look at that more deeply. Well, I was very blessed with what I called in my book, an ultimate Frisbee injury.

I really did have an ultimate Frisbee injury. But I use it as a metaphor, really, for the times when the universe has offered me the opportunity for some time out, time in retreat, time for study. And I went back to these texts. And found that the anomalies really boil down to some very key fundamental translation questions. Now, my first love as a student was languages and linguistics, and I studied French, German, Latin, Portuguese, Italian, Greek.

I think I think it was just those. But because I had a passion for language. And so when I came to reading the Bible and asking questions about the texts, my first question is always, what do the words mean? And as I drill down into some of these questions, I found that there are key words. Elohim is one and it’s the old word. The original word gets that gets translated as God in the ancient texts. And I found actually it’s a plural word. And you take it by the root, meaning it means the powerful words and suddenly that explain why the verb forms. It takes a plural verbs a lot of the time, why the behaviours it exhibits a plural behaviours, what seems to have plural agendas where Elohim conflict against each other. These are the stories that begin to surface when you retranslate. So I asked myself, what would happen to these old familiar stories, if I retell them with Elohim in the plural all the way through.  

At the moment, the word gets translated, I would say rather arbitrarily in some text. It’s translated as God. And others where the Elohim are on the wrong side, it’ll be demon or demons, false God, false gods, even chieftain landlords or sometimes angels. So I thought get back to the roots of it, retell the stories as the stories of the powerful ones and see what happens. And I found that what happens is those stories do a dramatic flip.

The moral questions resolve, and suddenly you realized you were staring at the Sumerian stories retold in summary form in the Bible, and the Sumerian stories on which they’re based are not stories about God. They’re stories about sky people, people who came to Earth from another planet, colonized our planet and governed over our distant ancestors. And that was the red pill that set me on the journey that led to escaping from Eden. And obviously I then have to think, well, this reframes a lot of things. What are the implications of this? And then I started looking for correlations in other ancestral narratives all around the world, cultures, different times and different places, apparently with no contact with each other.

And yet their stories seem to carry the same ancient memory. And that’s the territory that Escaping from Eden explores. Well, it led to the scars of Eden because as soon as escaping from Eden was published. I found I was being contacted by people every week, most weeks, every day by people who had either seen the same things in the texts and didn’t know where to go with that. And so I was hearing from senior clergy, pastors, theologians, people of faith or people who had been absolutely on the fringe or outside of faith because of these strange aspects to these stories.

We couldn’t take seriously stories about God, that portrayed God is so violent and implacable. And so they had not bought in to their families faith, people like that. But also, I was hearing from people who had had anomalous experiences. And particularly close encounters with what they believed were extra-terrestrial entities. And often I have found the people who contact me will say things like this. I had an encounter when I was 15 years old. It changed my life. I have told my spouse about it. I have talked to the person I was with when the thing happened and I haven’t told another living, breathing soul in the 50 years since it happened. Now, that’s the power of ridicule and the fear of ridicule that surrounds anomalous experiences and in particular, close encounters. And yet 50 years on. People contact me because they still need to process what happened, they still need to understand it and square it somehow, with the world they live in. And a lot of the personal coaching I do with people through my website, is people who need a handhold in that processing.

And then another group of people I started hearing from, were veterans of war and in particular people who had gone with the allies into Afghanistan or into Iraq in 2003, and what I was hearing, and I should say, I probably hear from more veterans of war than I know because I think those who are still in active service often don’t identify themselves that way. But I was hearing from a lot of veterans of war who are no longer in active service, and they have told me that they went into Iraq believing that they were laying their life on the line for all the publicly declared reasons, they believed they were risking their lives to save the Kurds, or to save the world from weapons of mass destruction. Or, to save the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein, and effect a regime change.

Only when they got there, they found that their particular unit was actually there on an archaeological mission. And what they were being tasked to do was to retrieve archaeological artifacts. Sequester them, take them out of Iraq, take them back to the USA, and all of a sudden they left asking, what am I risking my life for? What are these artifacts? What’s the relevance of them? Why can’t I know what they are? Why can’t I know where they’ve gone? When are we going to hear what they are, what the research is that’s been done on them? And they couldn’t get any answers.

And so those questions led them very quickly to the Mesopotamian stories from Sumerian, Babylonian, Arcadia and Assyria, because they realized these artifacts were connected with those stories, the world’s most ancient known stories about human origins and our place in the cosmos and as soon as they were onto that territory. That got them quickly to escaping from Eden and to the Fifth Kind TV, and into conversation with me.

And for me talking to those people is so humbling. And I just found such a sense of compassion for people whose whole world had been overturned by this experience. The world is not about what they thought it was about and their place, and it was different to what they thought it was. So there’s a lot of processing that people have to go through after an experience like that. But there was another reason I had to write The Scars of Eden,  that I had to go further with these questions. And that was that shortly before Escaping from Eden came out, I suddenly realized I was going to have to tell my parents-in-law about this controversial new book that was coming out.  My parents-in-law are wonderful people. They’re devout Christians, Baptists, Pentecostal background, they’re from Ghana.

And I thought, oh, my goodness, they might struggle a little bit with this book, where the subtitle was ‘Does Genesis Teach That The Human Race Was Created By God Or Engineered By ET’s?’ That might upset the apple cart a bit, and I am their son in law, but I better prepare them for this. So they came and stayed with us for the weekend in Canberra. And we had some lovely food and nice wine. And when everyone was relaxed, I thought, OK, this is the moment I can mention the book.

So I ran through with them everything that I’ve just said to you Marianne, looking to see what their reaction might be. And they sat there poker faced. I had no idea how they were taking this. And when I finally finished, my little speech, my father in law went back and he said, “Paul a penny has dropped”. Meaning that all the anomalies that I had noticed, he had noticed, too, and he had carried those questions for decades. And it had kept him a little bit cautious, in some ways, in his engagement with the faith, because he knew there were some questions not quite answered.

And now that’s what those stories are about. Oh, that’s what those wars were about. It’s now making sense. And my mother in law leaned forward and said, oh Paul, we already know this story. She said, in Ghana, we are taught the Christian explanation of things and we taught the modern scientific explanation of things. But there is also local knowledge, a folkloric knowledge, indigenous knowledge that we’re not alone on the planet. We’re not alone in this part of the cosmos.  And that there is a presence on planet Earth that has an involvement with human affairs. Even to the point of abducting human beings from time to time. And involving them in some kind of a hybridization program that’s going on, and it’s been going on for thousands of years. And in Ghana, we call these people the Mami Wata people. In fact, we have a family very closely connected with us who’ve experienced a Mami Wata adduction. Their daughter was taken for three years, taken from the beach at an Anloga, in the Keta district, of the Volta region, of Ghana.

Taken for three years and then returned healthier than when she went away, but with a story that she didn’t share for a long time. She was so embarrassed, and disturbed by it. But the story was, that she had been taken, held in an underwater base. Had been nicely treated, other than the fact she wasn’t allowed to leave for three years and had been used to produce children and that the people who had held her looked human, but they weren’t. They were the Mami Wata people. Well,  when her parents heard that. It was not what they expected to hear at all, they were expecting a story of a failed elopement or slave trafficking or something like that. They were so shocked to hear it from their own daughter. And yet it was not an unfamiliar story. It’s one that Ghanaians have told for thousands of years. Well, my jaw dropped when I heard this. I didn’t know anything about this. I have Ghanaian heritage. I didn’t know any of this indigenous knowledge. I had no idea our family was so connected. And it sent me on a journey all around the world.

And I realized that this is not a story that belongs only to Ghana. It’s all down the eastern coast of Africa, down to the southern cone. All up the west, western seaboard into the Caribbean, Brazil, Haiti, Cuba. All have iterations of the story as far east as the Philippines, where they have vocabulary that exists only to tell these stories. That vocabulary has roots in India. This is my linguistic brain coming in. If you go into Europe, the whole of Europe is named after an abductee. Europa was the daughter of a king of Phoenicia who was abducted by a non-human entity made to have three hybrid children, all  boys, one of whom was Minos the progenity of the Minoan culture. Now, what I just said is taught as history in Greece, not fable. That’s the history. And Europe is named after this lady.

You then go into the Norse countries, you’ll hear a similar story there, go into Wales, Scotland, Ireland. Same stories are told with every detail of my Ghanaian friends story, repeated. It’s such an unlikely and bizarre story. But, the details repeat of when I had made that journey. I realised I could not ignore the abduction phenomena in The Scars of Eden. It was not my ambition to write a book that would tackle the abduction phenomenon. Particularly, because, as much as any writer I’d like to be taken seriously. And I know that people really, really struggle with the whole idea of you can just about talk about are we in a populated universe? But as soon as someone saying I was abducted by aliens, I had an alien baby. Well, that is absolutely at the ridicule end of the spectrum. But I found the moment you start listening, with respect, to the elders of ancient cultures. The abduction story is front and centre of the stories of paleo contact, and we have to do business with it. Ask what it means? What is the memory that’s being carried and what are the implications of it? And so that is one of the threads in the scars of it. So those are all the reasons I just had to go on, on a longer journey and share the journey.

I can see how Escaping from Eden lead you to this path. But of course, not all experiences are abductions. I know personally, I’ve never been abducted. I’ve been an experiencer of my entire life and I’ve never, ever not talked about it. I’ve always talked about my experiences my entire life. Again,


I got ridiculed my, you know, people said, oh, she’s just crazy! Even my family members, the ones –  but my family have always had experiences. They haven’t had the personal experiences that I’ve had. But they’ve seen UFO, they’ve seen crafts close-up. They just haven’t had the face to face interaction that I have had.

Very often I’ve found, as I’ve had these conversations, there is far more of a family connection of experiences


than people often realize. Just as an illustration, I was talking the other day to a friend of mine who’s in ministry, and I’m very grateful for this friend because he’s been like an accountability partner for me for about eighteen years. And so I was very relieved and pleased that he really enjoyed these more recent books that have gone on to more controversial territory.

And he was talking to his dad about ‘The Scars Eden’, not knowing what his reaction would be. His dad had just said, “what’s Paul, up to these days?” And my friend Mark said, oh, well, he’s written these very interesting books. And he told his dad having no idea how his dad would react. And when Mark had finished, his dad got up, went and found a box, brought it over, opened it up. And lifted out some pieces of paper showing the drawings that Mark’s grandfather had made of close encounters he had experienced way, way back in the forty’s or fifty’s, I think it was? My friend Mark had no idea, because this story had been carried in silence for two generations in this family. And now, it’s there.

So when people come to me and say, I’ve had this experience and there’s a huge spectrum, as you rightly point out, Marianne, of experiences. Some are very happy, profound, spiritual, life-affirming experiences. And some people have very traumatic experiences. And there’s the whole spectrum in between.


And when people say they’ve had this experience and they feel that they have had the uninvited attention of other beings, I will often ask, have your parents experienced anything like this? And they’ll say, oh, no, not to my knowledge, no. I, in fact, I haven’t told them about it. I have no idea what they think. And then about a week later, I’ll get an email saying I talked to my dad and he opened up to me about what happened to him when he was fifteen. And the dad hasn’t told the son because he wants to protect the son from his bizarre experience –  the son, hasn’t told the father because he doesn’t want to disturb the father or their relationship. Finally, one of them summons the courage to share their experience. And they realize this goes through the family.

I was talking to a pastor from the UK the other day. Who had noticed a boy in her Sunday school who has an unusual level of intelligence for his age. Very sensitive, very aware, very intelligent, thoughtful, seemingly older than his years.  And she thought, I must talk to his mom. So she went to see the mom and she wanted to find a tactful way of saying, was there anything unusual about your third son here?  His – Your pregnancy with him, or something like that?  Because, she was beginning to suspect there was another layer to this story.

She’s had a lot of parishioners who’ve had Close Encounters, and that was what she was wondering when she got to the house. She had that conversation with the mother and the mother said, well, it’s funny you should say that because I’ve had four kids, I, I know what conception is. I know what pregnancy is. I know what birth is. And yes, with the third one, something very different happened. And she’d had a profound experience. A paranormal encounter on the night of his conception, which she had not told anybody other than, I think, her mother. But now she was telling a parish priest.

Before my friend, the parish priest, got to that conversation. The moment she walked in the door of that house, the grandmother was present. And the grandmother, instead of saying, oh, good evening, vicar, or a greeting like that, just immediately blurted out, I’ve seen fairies. And all of a sudden, my friend realized we’ve got three generations with different experiences, different language, but they are all related. And the language of fairies, is the language that was used by the Celtic peoples, from hundreds of years ago. To describe not Tinkerbelle or some imaginary figure like that, but to describe paranormal encounters with beings who are similar to us but smaller. And, who are involved in abductions and hybridization.

The original fairy stories that were started centuries ago, were not cute stories for kids. They were very disturbing stories about another presence on planet Earth. And so, I tell that story to point out that there’s different language and different generations.  And often a family connection, different vocab around the world. But, you start putting the stories alongside each other and you realize that we’re being told the same thing.

Hmm. Yeah, it’s really interesting, isn’t it? And the Fae connection, like I’ve always known that Fae are interdimensional. But they do, even in New Zealand, in traditional Māori mythology the Fae, or the Patupaiarehe, are known to abduct woman. They’re not so kind to men. The men, they often killed.  But woman they would take, and they would return unharmed, sometime later. So, yeah, it’s throughout the whole world!  It’s very, very interesting. Now look, I’ve got a whole page of notes here that I took, when I read your book. And what I’d like to –  I’d like to also talk about your experience. Now, when we spoke last time my gut said to me, Oh, you’ve had experiences! And whether you recall them or not?  I know you’re going to, at some stage.

Yes, that’s  exactly right. And you had that right. And I found that as I began getting into conversation with experiencers who were contacting me. That very often, they’d want to sound me out, very carefully before sharing their story. Because they weren’t just, you know, looking for any old ear to pour  their story into. They wanted to know I could be trusted with a story that they’d guarded so carefully, for decades. And the sounding out questions would often be; Paul, have you had a close encounter?

And so early on, my answer would have been, no, I haven’t. But I have many friends who have. But, as I listen to more and more stories, I started thinking. Hold on. Just a minute, I did experience something funny when I was twenty. That I’ve never got my head around. And as I began joining the dots, I realized that when I was twenty,  five very bizarre, anomalous things happened that year, experiences where I could remember part of what happened. And then couldn’t remember what happened next, where I didn’t know how it had happened? What that meant?  What it was I was seeing or not seeing?  Or, what had caused this glitch in my memory, this experience of lost time?

And, as I began reflecting on those, I realized that when I had these experiences at twenty years old. I interpreted them through my world view of that moment! And as a young, enthusiastic Christian, my world view included boxes for God, the devil, angels, demons, human, animal, vegetable, mineral and energy and nothing else. And so these odd experiences I had to put in one of those boxes. So I had one experience that was very disturbing and frightening. And I thought, well, the only box I can put that in is demonic. So I put it there. But I knew it didn’t quite fit. That experience was too material to be that! It didn’t quite make sense, theologically. And yet, I let that lay for all that time. And then another experience where I encountered some people, who, I had a profound sense that they were not human, and I couldn’t explain why I had that feeling. And that had sat with me and I thought, well, they had a really lovely energy. They threw off. So I put them in the box that says Angel, except they had a toddler with them. Do angels had babies? That doesn’t quite so that didn’t sit quite right either. And I had a few other experiences, too.

Now, having done the research I’ve done for ‘Escaping From Eden’, and ‘The Scars of Eden’, and listened to heaps of other people’s experiences, I realize there are a whole load of other boxes. You could take all other kinds of entity. We’re in a very interesting universe with inter-dimensional realities. With energy based entities, with extra-terrestrial entities. And I’d gone back to my experiences. And so, they belong in that box. That was a close encounter that first thought. That was another close. That was another close encounter. And then to start wondering. OK, I’m now labelling differently the experiences I can remember, but what did happen next? What was the thing I can’t remember. And that’s the journey I’m on and ‘The Scars Of Eden’

And it sort of ends on a cliff-hanger of beginning to uncover what that story might be? But it’s helped me to understand why this topic of paleo contact has always been important to me. Why I have always wanted to listen with respect to other experiencers, even at times when I only had the popular story of ridicule, against which to measure people’s testimonies. Something deep in me has always said, no, you need to listen to this. And it’s rooted in my own experience. And the reason I tell my stories in the Scars of Eden is not because they’re dramatic stories. My experiences are nothing like a Whitley Strieber or Travis Walton story. My stories are I have a vague recollection of something. I’m not quite sure what it was. I’ve always puzzled over it. And I share them because I think – I wouldn’t put a percentage on it, but let me say, if you set down any friendships or any family circle and ask the question, have you ever experienced something you don’t know what it was? You can’t explain it? You’ve always puzzled over it?  Every circle and possibly every individual would have an answer to that question. And if we can listen to each other’s stories like that, stories that we think are about nothing. We listen to each other and pull those stories, a coherent picture will begin to emerge. And it is a picture that has to do with the fact that we’re not alone on this planet. There are other presences here.

Absolutely. And Paul, on a personal level, your experiences have been for a reason. And I can give you part of the reason. All your life you’ve been drawn to helping others. You knew you had this work to do, right?

That’s right.

But you didn’t know what it was. Well, you’re actually doing it! Because I suspect, like myself, you have been taught how to speak to people about this subject.  How to bring it open to people. How to educate people, and bring it into public awareness. And this is part of the reason why I do my podcast, and part of the reason why I had my group. Because I’m not a writer, but I can talk. And I’m not shy about talking about my experiences. And people like us have been taught by our Sky People, as you call them, by my Star People, as I call them, just do this work. Because, we’re not scared to! And somebody has to do it.

I think that’s absolutely right. Marianne and I have really enjoyed my work in ministry, in the church context for thirty-three years. Where I have learned some listening skills, I hope, and learned some pastoral skills. And in a way, I see all that as preparation for the work I’m doing now. Which is really pastoral work, helping people to process these experiences, to reframe what’s happened. It’s really pastoral work, but also, the writing and the theological work is preparation for what I’m doing now.


And, as a writer –  a writer is simply someone who shares the journey, to help other people on similar journeys. And that’s what I’ve done with all my books, all through the years. And that’s what ‘Escaping From Eden, and  ‘The Scars of Eden’ are doing. And I hope, breaking a taboo for new generations. So that they can recognize their own experiences, and talk about them. And so that those of us who have had these experiences, or have been paying attention to other peoples, are not just sitting twiddling their thumbs waiting for the government to own up to the fact, we’ve been in contact.

If we can get conversations, with respect, going among ourselves. Then that is a grassroots way of disclosure and declassification that help us understand where we’re living. But almost, I would think, more importantly than that, remember who we are, what our potential is. And the kinds of life that we can live, when we switch on a little bit more to who we are. And allow ourselves to live a bit more conscious, and a bit more intelligently on this planet together.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome, isn’t it? It’s awesome. I can absolutely see, looking at your history, how you’ve been prepped and prepared the whole way. You’ve had the studies in ancient literature, you’ve had the world studies, you’ve got your linguistics. So everything that you’ve done in your life has prepped you, for this journey that you’re currently on. And it’s quite exciting, actually, isn’t it?

It is! It’s an amazing journey, involves a lot of re-framing. And I have to be willing to be kind of on the on the cusp of the conversation, with regard to people of faith participating in the conversation. Because, it’s been such a taboo. But I realize now, looking back, that many of the people I’ve admired through Christian history were people, who had powerful experiences that pushed them right to the edge of the orthodox world, and beyond. And so, I would include people like Saint Seraphim of Sarov, who is a Russian mystic. Lived from seventeen-fifty-nine to eighteen-thirty-three, who had very powerful, what at the time were anomalous experiences of precognition, remote viewing, paths of healing and all that made him very sought out by the general public.

But it pushed him right to the fringe of what was acceptable in orthodoxy, in Russia at that time, or even someone like John Wesley, who people might perceive, as being right in the heart of the Christian tradition. Actually, he was the leader of a revival in which people were having spiritual experiences of God that pushed them outside of the church scene. And then, he had to work out a way of pastoring those people. And very often the stories of religious revival, you read them again and you realize this is people who have been propelled out of their comfortable boxes. Out of the religious mainstream because they’ve just had a direct experience of some kind.

And so the fact that I’ve been interested in that aspect of history, interested in those figures. All of those people had to work out how to occupy territory where they would be a figure of scorn, derision, ridicule. And yet, they were wanting to make a journey as a person of integrity, to the thing they just learned or discovered. And so, I guess I’ve been learning those lessons in the decades as well. Not quite anticipating it was going to be about ET contact in the future. But that’s how I got my lessons in advance.

Yeah. And it’s quite interesting how it prepares us. For me, like, I was always – I always talked about my Star People encounters and people –  you know, not always to my benefit, mostly to my detriment. But it didn’t stop me, because I’m all about living my truth. And walking my talk. And, I’ve always been absolutely open. And I have said  – and that’s one of the reasons I started this podcast, was to at least get people questioning. And I think that is the great thing that both your books Escaping From Eden and Scars of Eden do. Is they cause people to question! And questioning is good, because it opens doors. And it leads to people finding their own path. And finding – ah waking, I call it waking. It leads to people . . .

It does! Initially challenging people with questions. People have to sort of psych themselves up to engage with the questions. And I have some friends who are just refusing to read my books, because they don’t want the questions.

Yes, I saw that!

But once you said, alright, I’m going to I’m going to go there and you come away with questions, it ignites such an appetite. And you realize you’re in a whole new season of your life now.  You’re on a journey of learning and it’s a rejuvenating experience to begin wrestling with a whole new set of questions.

And I want to go back to what you said about labelling, you know, how you hate to give things labels. One of the things my Star People have constantly said to me, over my entire lifetime –  And they find it so endlessly amusing, is how humans have this need to label and categorize.

Yes, we need boxes.

We have to have labels for everything. Boxes for everything, yeah. And they find this endlessly amusing. It’s just a facet of humanity that really intrigues them.

I, that is so true. And perhaps for me it’s a mid-step to say we need far more boxes. But, beyond that –  For instance, one of the, one of the things people say to me when they are sort of, wrestling, with the material I’m offering them.  If they’ve come from a faith background, they will start using the language of angels and – which is fine.  And there are experiences we and our ancestors have that we have labelled that way.

But, I often find I have to point out that the word angel doesn’t tell you anything about the genus of that being. Doesn’t tell you what kind of being you’re looking at.  Doesn’t tell you anything about their biology. The word angel simply tells you that that entity is on a mission. Or that that entity has a message. And something called an angel in this text over here, could be a totally different kind of entity to something called an angel, over here.

And another example, would be – There’s a fascinating verse in one John four, in the New Testament. Which is curious, because it’s about channelling. And Christians don’t expect to find a pro-channelling text in the New Testament. And yet, here’s this verse where the writer, John, is talking about Christians doing channelling, and saying don’t believe every spirit. Or, don’t believe everything that every spirit says to you. Weigh it up, test it. And if some spirit comes along and tells you just to trash everything you believe about Jesus. Well don’t pay any attention to that one, because there are bad spirits out there, as well as good spirits. So that’s what he says.

So right away, he’s affirming the fact that Christians are going to be hearing from entities that are not physical entities. And they, there will be some who are trying to help them. And others who might be trying to confuse them. So what’s interesting about that is, who are they? It doesn’t say – they’re spirit. What does that mean? It doesn’t say.  It’s just left very vague. And so is he talking about other kinds of being? Is he talking about other physical beings that communicate telepathically? Is he talking about energy based beings? Interdimensional beings? Is he talking about ancestors? Could be any, or all of those. And it doesn’t seem to matter to him, because he doesn’t tie that down.

He just says be discerning about what you hear from spirits. And that is an amazing permission giving text, in my view. to be discerning. Yes, be discerning. But, expect that you’re going to get help from a spiritual team and you won’t necessarily know who they are, but you’ve got help around you.


And that goes alongside another text that has always fascinated me from the book of Hebrews, in the New Testament. That says, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. And the writer is talking about people who lived on earth before us. And he says, since we’re surrounded, he doesn’t say preceded. He says we’re surrounded by them. And they’re very interested in us, and our lives. And how, we are running the race marked out for us.

Now, these two things together, tell me that we’ve got company. And the company isn’t all negative or scary.  Like ghosts or aliens as we picture them from Mars attacks or invasion, of the body snatchers.  Part of this soup, in which we’re living, is beneficial.  And we have presences around us who are here to help, are here to guide. And not to be afraid to recognize that, and engage with it. And unfortunately, a lot of our religious traditions have taught us to be afraid of anything. We can’t label.

Oh, absolutely!

Everything we don’t fully understand. And we’ve got to live more boldly and confidently than that.

Absolutely. Not only not only religions, also the movie propaganda that’s been put out. Mostly the alien stuff, apart from Star Trek, is very negatively based. Because, it’s deliberate to incite fear in people against fear. Again, it’s that fear button, isn’t it?

Definitely, I think you’re right. I think there’s probably more than just Star Trek these days, that has that more positive world view. And I’m very intrigued by cannons like the Star Trek canon, or the Marvel Universe canon. Because, I’ve learned that ancient ancestral knowledge often finds its way into those movie scripts.  

Hmm, absolutely!

Some ancient knowledge has been protected. And therefore, it’s become esoteric traditions. And those esoteric traditions often leak information back into the mainstream, through novels, through movies, through television series. And it’s very deliberate and it’s very conscious. And at another level, some of those writers – When you write, when you create, very often you will realize that you are channelling without knowing that’s what you’re doing. Even someone at the level of a stand-up comedian, who is composing in the moment is performing spontaneously.  Can do their hour set, and walk off stage thinking, oh, my goodness, where did all that come from?


And storytelling is an amazing way of tapping information we hold subconsciously. But also, tapping those spirits who are around us, to guide our thinking, and assist us. That’s the belief I’ve come to through the, through the research that began with ET’s and biblical texts. That all these things are connected and begin opening up.

Oh, absolutely. Wow, this has been totally  paradigm shifting for you, really,  hasn’t it this journey?  It’s like, from your very conservative roots to where you are today! It’s almost like day and night. Well, no, it’s not really. It’s more of an expanded view.

It is, an expanded view. It’s an expansion. Exactly! And it’s enabled me to unpack, the implications of things I’ve been noticing all through the years. And in a way, when I go back to the Gospels, for instance, again, I go back with my linguist hat on. And say, how might we translate that differently? Because it’s so difficult to read religious texts, without hearing it in a religious way.

Of course.

With all the cultural layers of interpretation that are on top of every word in a sentence that is challenging. I now realize, if I go back to the first sermon that Jesus toured with, according to Matthew’s Gospel. You translate those words again, by their root meanings, and what he was saying was –  And it was a message so important, he shared this wherever he went. He was saying, the amazing power of the source is available to everybody. And that’s kind of a summary of what I’ve been learning, and all the reframing of my religious faith. My theological journeys, the anomalies I’ve noticed the people I have encountered who are totally outside of a religious world or totally outside of our faith and who are yet on the same journey, participating in the same things. That sermon explains to me why that is. That the amazing power of the source is available to everyone, and that’s what I’m beginning to see.

Mm. Very, very interesting. Now, let me go to some of these notes I have here. Because, there’s a few things. In your book. In ‘Scars of Eden’ you’ve got a quote from President Wilson, saying; Somebody, something, a power somewhere. So organized. So subtle. So watchful. So into, into – oh I can’t read my writing!


Interlocked, so completely,

Interlocked, yeah.

So pervasive, watching us. But I added, the is watching us. But, he’s talking about those that currently control this reality that we’re aware of.

Yes. Yes, he is.

And some people call that –  there are a lot of names that people use for that. But, they’re only looking at figureheads, not the actual beings behind it. You know, like the names they might have, like Illuminati. The powers that be. There’s a lot of names that people . . .

The one percent, the one the elites, the military industrial complex. And. Yes, that’s right. It’s a really interesting quote from Woodrow Wilson. It is echoed again by a later president who warned about the military industrial complex, which was Eisenhower, if I’m remembering correctly? And you can read it at a number of levels, some people will say what Woodrow Wilson was warning about was the power of corporations and certainly, yes, he was talking about that. But the story is bigger than that. And the moment you start listening to your ancestral narratives, you realize there’s a human layer to this question of who’s really governing us. And then there’s a non-human layer to it, too.  

So the Gnostic gospels talk about Archons that manipulate human leaders. And then go to the Hebrew text and you got the powerful ones who are in authority over the human leaders. And it’s interesting that many of our ancient stories talk about a time when we were governed by non-humans and then talk about a time when there was a handover to human viceroys, regents’, governments. Many of them have this handover moment. It’s there in the Bible. King Saul, is the first human leader for the people of God. Gilgamesh is the crossover king, in the Sumerian stories. And there’s just that little question mark of, well so, where did the non-human authorities go? Did they just go home? But they’re still at the top of the economic tree?  Or, are they still present, but covert?

Now,  just before Christmas, Haim Eshed, the former chief of space security for Israel, the brigadier general, that held that position for twenty seven years.  Came out with a statement saying that on the basis of his career, everything he knows from that work, his understanding is that there is an intergalactic federation involved in Project Earth, in contact in a covert level with covert layers of government. But that’s chosen not to self-disclose. Well, he has just said what we were talking about! That there’s a human layer to our stores of governance and there’s a non-human layer. And it’s only when you factor that in that you can begin to understand the real nature of our history and where we’re at.

Correct. I was actually going to mention him, so I’m glad you brought him up. Yeah, very, very interesting. And actually, this been my knowledge my entire life, what my Star People have taught me.  And also this year, in March, Eric W. Davis. Was it Eric W Davis? And is comments that he made.

Yes, the physicist.

Is he a physicist is he?


Oh, OK. He made the comment about Off-Road vehicles they not made on this earth.

Yes, that’s right. Exactly. So he briefs the AATIP, the Pentagon’s body that researches and counters and crash retrievals. And he was talking to the press about his briefings and his phrase was, “Off world vehicles. Not made all on this earth.”, which makes it pretty clear what we’re talking about.

Yeah. So really the government’s given disclosure, but they’ve done it in in such – Well, they’ve been drip feeding, as I said last time, for about two or three years now. Steadily

Yes. They have.

drip feeding, since they released the military videos initially. And then, Christopher Mellon was, of course, the gentleman who leaked those. Who ‘leaked’ those.

Yes, that’s right. He was. And what’s interesting is the authority of these figures, who are making these disclosures. And this is what’s new, I think. Because, a decade ago, people who were paying attention raised an eyebrow when the Russian prime minister, Dmitry Medvedev.  On camera, talking to a journalist, said that each successive prime minister of Russia is provided with a folder, detailing the species that we’re already in contact with. And his statement was not debunked or dis-endorsed by President Putin. There was no statement made to distance themselves, and that was a bit of a shift.

Now we’re seeing in the West people in authority making statements. So Chris Mellon, is the former Assistant Secretary of Defence for Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush. And Alain Chouet is the former Chief Of Intelligence for French Intelligence. And he has authenticated that AATIP studies, UFOs and crash retrievals. Paul Hellier, of course, previous Minister of Defence, has been talking for a while about these things, Haime Eshed, the former Chief of Space Security. So what’s interesting is that’s just one degree removed from being the person in authority making an official disclosure. We can’t get much closer than that, can you?

No. You can’t.

And even with the briefings that are coming up later this year, the Senate intelligence briefings, again, there’s that one degree removed. The government wanting to look innocent, of course, is saying to the Pentagon, please brief us with what you know about these things? And so there will be A briefing, which I think probably there may be more volume. We might know about more encounters than just the Tic-Tac encounters, and the pyramid shaped craft.  But it will amount to what’s already been disclosed. I think that we are in contact with ET technology.

I doubt they’re going to go the extra step and say, actually, we’ve been in conversation with them, in collaboration for decades. I just don’t think they’re going to say that. But, I think they will authenticate what we already have been told. Which is mind-blowing enough, that we are engaging, and are in possession of ET technology. Because, that is the big news. And to me, it’s surprising that there hasn’t been a more massive reaction to the information that’s already out there. And I don’t know if it’s because we’re so distracted or that the drip, drip has actually worked? And people are beginning to say, yeah, I think I’d worked out something was going on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s been a considerable – well actually, my Star People told me back in the eighties that the governments in the world had been given notice that they had to release information, about extra-terrestrial life, and extra-terrestrial reality. Or, the choice would be taken out of their hand. And at that stage, they were given a time limit. A specific – it’s not that our guys work on time because, there is no time outside of this planet.  But, they were given a limit. And if they didn’t release it, then the choice was going to be taken out of their hands.

And so, since then, they have started really slowly. It started really subtly. Then all of a sudden, the media started not treating these stories with derision, and making a joke of them. And then, things started being sped – And finally, in the past three years, you’ve got a constant. And then, last year when covid was at its height. Well, at the beginning of its height, that’s when the Pentagon came out and said, well, these things are real. But nobody jumped up and said, oh, my God, the government’s just acknowledged that these are alien craft. Therefore, there must be aliens who made them?

Yes! That’s right!

Nobody jumped up and said, oh, my God! Nobody! And it’s because people are distracted. And, and they did it deliberately during that period of time so that they would have – So when they do introduce alien species to humanity, which I don’t feel is very far away, that they can say. But we already told you.

Yeah. Don’t you remember we told you? Yeah. Yeah, I see it exactly the same way. It’s almost like an insurance policy for if the process of disclosure slips out of their control. They can say, remember we told you same with the Roman Catholic Church, with the colloquium of a decade ago. They also could say, don’t you remember we told you. Yes.

And wasn’t that Monsignor Balducci?

Yes, well, yes, he was! And I was very interested in what he had to say. And I really applaud him for his boldness in his statements because he is, was at that time the Vatican’s senior adviser in ministry to the paranormal. And what that usually means in a church setting is entity removal. So, exorcism of places, deliverance of people, emotional healing of people. And he said, so this is his whole area of expertise. He said when people report close encounters or abduction experiences, they are not describing a psychotic break. It’s not a psychological phenomenon. And it’s not a demonic phenomenon. They are describing a totally different kind of entity, one that merits serious study. And when somebody of his seniority says that, especially in the context of the colloquium, it is an acknowledgement. Again by the Vatican, by the curia, of non-human entities in contact with us, such as described by people who talk about abduction experiences. So, again, a huge admission. A huge affirmation. Once again, couldn’t believe how little attention and shock that elicited, but it’s now out there and they can say, don’t you remember we told you?

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And that – you know, one thing that constantly –  That, um, irritates me immensely, is the social manipulation that those who control this reality use on humans. Humans think that they have this free will,  and that they’re making their own decisions, their own choices. But, it’s actually only an illusion of free will. Everything that we perceive, everything that we see, is very tightly controlled and manipulated. So that we will think, we will see, in a certain way.

Yes, I think this is one of the things people really struggle with who had close encounters, where they have –  or other personal experiences, where they get a glimpse into that. Where they see the codes behind the manifestation, or they realize that consciousness, and time and space, is not what they thought it was. And so, they then come back into this thing we perceive as the four dimensional world, and have to ask, how do I live my life? How do I make my decisions?

Now I’ve seen everything I’ve seen? And some really struggle to do that. Can you get an ordinary job, live an ordinary life in this world? Go do your shopping, do all the normal things? When you have been so dislocated from the mainstream understanding, of what it is we’re all in. Some people really struggle with that, and need help with that. And others are empowered by it. Because, I think the potential is, you can come back from an experience like that. And live your life with much greater courage, as if it’s almost ,as if if I thought this was a dream, what would I do now?

And I think you can come back with that kind of fire in your belly, when you have one of these revelatory experiences. And I find it very interesting, when I read Plato, who had one of these revelatory experiences. It’s all told in the voice of Socrates in his writings. But, I do think he’s speaking for himself when it comes to this. He said that some of his beliefs, his conclusions. Things he had concluded that he could not prove, he said he got those from a,  what we would call a psychedelic experience. An altered state of consciousness where he perceived other layers to this reality.

And I think that’s where he got his idea of the matrix from the , you know the codes behind the virtual reality. These other entities, that have an involvement in what’s going on here. And his hope was that he could come back, and inspire people to live in the light of that information. And what that meant for him was to live fearlessly. And to live as if this is a dream. And with the kind of courage that that would give you. And again, I go back to the lives and teachings of people like Buddha, or Jesus, or John the Baptist, or Lao Tzu. And that’s what they were about. They were teaching us to live in that fearless, courageous anything is possible kind of way.

Yeah. And the  reason, part of the reason –  I’m going back to the manipulation, that I get angry. Is because, I see the social manipulation that has been used on people today. Like in the covid situation you hear the media constantly, constantly repeating these words,  ‘unprecedented times’, ‘the new norm’

Oh, I know. Yes, I know. It’s horrible. Yes. And the thing that upsets me more than the fact that our journalists have been so intimidated by our governments. That they will not engage with the questions we should all be asking. Not just irritated by media who just, you know, it’s like everyone is saying this. It’s like we’re living in nineteen eighty four. That it’s just become the Ministry of Information. I get more frustrated and angry when I see my peers drinking it all in, and repeating it all. And then when it’s proven wrong, they’ll drink in the new story, and repeat all that. Instead of asking more questions!

Asking questions. Yeah, it’s the not questioning, isn’t it? That’s why I say getting people to question. And, you know, I call my podcast Walking the Shadowlands, because of what we were talking about just a few minutes ago.  That knowing what reality is, and having to live in this reality, is like walking in the Shadowlands. One foot in the shadowlands and one foot in this reality.

Yes, it is. It’s a great way of thinking about it. I absolutely agree. And I, my personality worrying is that I find it very easy to get exasperated.  And so all the things we were just talking about, I find it very easy to get so frustrated. And we can come away feeling very, very disempowered, when we see some of these manipulations going on. That’s why I love coming back to someone like Plato. Who reached that point in his life where he felt completely hopeless, that he could shift the political conversations of the day. And get it onto territory where a healthier society might be built.

And he just made a decision of thinking, well, what I’ve got to do is actually shift people’s thinking, shift people’s consciousness. And I was talking with Lauralee Potvin the other day, on the Angel Rock. And I was saying, we can feel very disempowered. And we can just sit wringing our hands, wishing the manipulation wasn’t going on. Wishing for more transparent government. Wishing for more , and just seeing no way of achieving it. But, if we can impact ourselves, and one another –  if we can live with greater emotional intelligence. If I can put it that way?

That’s a good way of putting it.

Then we, and we can’t be led by a xenophobe. If we can be more emotionally intelligent as a culture, we won’t be led by a demagogue. It’s just not going to work. If we can be more emotionally intelligent, we’re not easy to manipulate. And I think, that can sound really complicated, bit complicated. How do we be more emotionally intelligent? And I think the first thing, the thing we’re most regularly taught by our spiritual ancestors, is to switch the fear button off. Just don’t buy into that. Yes, you’re hearing things that are terrifying. If you go around terrified. You are ripe for the picking.

Just don’t do it! Don’t let yourself get pulled down into that morass of despair, exasperation, depression, fear. If you can learn to step out of that a bit, look after yourself. Be conscious about what emotional state you’re in. Make some decisions about the energy you’re going to move in today, before you step out the front door. All of a sudden, you’re in a spot where you can’t be pushed and pulled in the same way. And if enough of us do that, then our culture can’t be pushed to pull in the same way.

Correct! One of the things my Star People, again said to me, back in the eighties. Was that humanity had to reach a certain point in their development, before certain things could occur. Now, this energy was reached, actually about two and a half, three years ago. About the time actually, I really started pushing the thing – that I felt the difference in the energy, as it came onto the planet. It was like that – poof! And I knew that we had reached that tipping point! And I knew that from that – In fact, I as soon as I felt it, I it in my group that I have. I mentioned, that I had just felt the energy shift. And here is what has happened! And here is what will happen, from here on in. And the things that I told them have actually come to pass. Like people, there would be a polarization of people. From that point on, those that were opening and questioning would question more. And that was when we had the ‘Me Too’ movement start. We had the young people standing up and saying, NO! This is NOT acceptable! People are speaking up. And they are waking up, at a far greater rate now. Because, there are enough of people who are awake, that the energy automatically goes out, and affects everybody around them.

Yes, it does. And, I absolutely agree with what you just said. A number of things seem to be happening all at once. And if you look at the world’s geopolitics in the last five years, I would say. You can see a very disturbing trend towards power grabs, by elites. Polarization of populations, by demagogues. Increasing xenophobia, violent, all that sort of thing. And we began speaking five years ago, saying it feels like we’re going into the nineteen-thirties, before the Second World War. It’s got that mood, that atmosphere to it.

But then, by the time twenty-seventeen, twenty-eighteen were coming along, I suddenly found I was on a journey of rapid learning. My wife, was on a parallel journey of rapid learning, totally different track. I started by drilling down into Genesis. My wife started by listening to near-death experiences. And we found our journeys converged. And we found ourselves on the same territory. And as we began comparing notes with friends, anxiously thinking, oh, who can I mention this thought to that it won’t absolutely freak out?

And to our amazement, to use the language you just used. We found people all around us were waking up, and saying, I am questioning this thing, I’ve always believed.  I’m questioning this authority, that I’ve always trusted. And I’m beginning to look into this, and this, and this. And I started to be very surprised by what YouTube channels, various friends of mine were watching. Channels to do with questioning mainstream narratives, and making fresh explorations. And I realized, that there was an enormous appetite out there, such as I had never seen before. That represented a massive shift and even before we had our conversations. Yes, there was a shift in the energy, the fact we were all in that place, we were feeling the effect of that. And, it’s almost like those experiments that are done where, you know, experiments with rats? Where one rat works its way out through the maze, and then all of them know how to do it. We’re kind of experiencing that, as a species at the moment. Which is tremendously exciting. So there’s a polarised experience, one that’s been very dark and frightening. But, at the same time, there’s a dislodging that’s happening as well. And a fresh journey of discovery. And I’m very excited to be alive now, and part of these public conversations at this time.

Oh, gosh. Me too. It’s a very exciting time. And like for me, having had that knowledge from way back. Then, watching it unfold, as it has over these years. Particularly these past few years, is incredibly exciting. Because, we’re coming to a period of time when humanity is no longer going to be humanity by itself. We’re going to be of the greater galactic community.

Definitely. That’s why Haime Eshed, made that statement. Clearly, because he wants us, the human race, to be at that table. Ed Mitchell, who passed away the year before all this process began, with the leaking by Chris Mellon, to The New York Times.  Made his statements so boldly and courageously. Calling on the American government to declassify its UFO files, and come clean about being in contact with other space faring civilizations.  Because, he believed we can, and should be at the table. To be able to say, well, this is our planet! We are the human race. These are our agendas. These are our desires. And he believed that was possible. And I believe it’s possible. Because, I believe we have friends at that table already.

We do!

And we talked about the spectrum of company that we’re in, and I think, even across the spectrum of interdimensional, extra-terrestrial energy based. There are demographics who are have a nurturing relationship towards us. Who like us. Who want humanity to prosper. And when we listen to our ancestors, they talk about people from the Pleiades coming to help us. People from Sirius coming to nurture our civilization. John in the New Testament talks about spirits coming to inform us, and help us. We have allies around that table. And I share it Ed Mitchell’s,  Haime Eshed’s, aspirations for us.  That we can have a meaningful part to play in that conversation.  Because, we have friends already at that table for us.

Yes, we do. We do. Absolutely. Oh, it’s an exciting time! It’s an exciting time that we live in Paul. And I’m so thrilled to see how your journey has unfolded. Escaping from Eden is an amazing, amazing book. Scars of Eden is an amazing book, that just takes it a step further. And I really like the way you did the chapters.  I  particularly like –  And maybe we can end on this. The story of the little two year old boy, a three year old boy.

Yes. John, we’ll call him not his real name. Who went on a camping holiday in California to Mount Shasta. Now some people hearing Mount Shasta will say, oh, my goodness, what happened there? Because it’s an area renowned for paranormal activity. And what happened to this little boy of three, is that he disappeared from his family’s campsite. And there was a search that went on for – trying to remember how many hours, I think it was nearly seven hours they were searching for him and very quickly the emergency services were there scouring the area for him. When they found him shortly before one o’clock in the morning, they found him on a path that had been thoroughly searched. More than once. It was a path so many of them are used on the search. Yet there he was all of a sudden anxious, disoriented, but safe. That was the end of the story, so it seemed.  Until a few years, weeks later when he was with his grandmother, and he said from out of the blue, I don’t like the other Grandma Cappy.

That was how he addressed Cathy, his grandmother. And she said, What do you mean the other Grandma Cappy? What are you talking about? And then he explained what happened to him, when he went missing, those weeks before. That, he had been led away by someone he thought was Grandma Cappy. Who led him into what he perceived as a cave. With what he perceived as robotic like creatures in it, and all sorts of detritus. He saw discarded guns, discarded handbags, and things like that in this cave.

And then, he began to realize this person wasn’t his grandma at all. And there was something, he started seeing light and sparks coming off her.  And he thought, is this a robot? And then this grandma Cappy asked him to do something unusual. Lie down. I need to examine you. So she examined his tummy. And then she said, I want you to defecate on that sticky paper. And he said, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t go. And then, this entity got angry with him and said, you know, you’re not from here. You know that when your mom was pregnant with you, it’s because you’re a star child, you’re actually part E.T. 

 And he reported this in three year old language, to his grandmother. And she’s absolutely horrified by what he’s saying. And at first thinks this just must be some three year old imaginary story, he’s cobbled together from stuff he’s watched on the TV. And her initial reaction is to phone up her son-in-law, I think it was, and say, what on earth have you been letting John watch on the television? And they said, oh, no, no, no, it’s not that, and yes, he told us that story as well. We just thought what a fertile imagination.

At the end of that conversation, she was very restless and unsatisfied with that explanation, because what would he have watched that would have him defecate on a piece of sticky paper? That’s not in anything he’d have seen on the TV. And then she began to remember, bit like me, with the scars of aid and remembering my own experience and making the connection, she does the same. She realized she had been camping there and had woken up outside of her tent. Outside of a sleeping bag lying face down in the dirt, feeling very unwell with a puncture wound in her neck. And when the people she was camping with gathered around her and checked to see if she was all right, they realized somebody else who had slept indoors was feeling very unwell. They had a puncture wound in their neck.  

And as they compared notes, they said, actually, this whole experience has been odd because we’ve camped here so many times. Where’s all the wildlife? And they hadn’t heard birds. They hadn’t seen butterflies. They’d seen no creatures wandering through the forest. And it had freaked them out a little bit. And then in the night, they’d been a little comforted by the fact they could see eyes staring at them from the forest. And they thought, oh, good, well, at least there are some deer here. And now she’s thinking, perhaps those weren’t deer? And perhaps the  experience I had, and it took a month to recover from whatever happened, wasn’t a spider bite with only one fang after all?

And maybe it’s connected with this missing time, and John story and this anomalous story? Well, John’s explanation given to him by this odd entity, whatever it was? About his mother’s pregnancy, and the fact that he was part E.T, is part of a far wider pattern of stories that goes back thousands of years. You listen to the story of the Vipassī Buddha who’s regarded as the twenty second incarnation of Buddha before Siddhartha Gautama Buddha. Listen to the story of Lao Tzu’s mother. Or the mother of Jesus, or the mother of John the Baptist. or in Hebrew history, the mother of Isaac.

They are all stories of anomalous conceptions, anomalous pregnancies. And they are stories about children who are different because of it. I’ve now learned there are mothers all around the world right now, and I mentioned one earlier. Who would tell similar stories given the opportunity. But they tend to be stories that are held very, very tightly, very closely. But the phenomenon of this story. The phenomenon of this experience, we might call them star children, indigo children


– is as old as human civilization, as wide as the planet. And what happens if we start listening to that story with respect? Again, it tells us we’re in company and the company is very involved in our story.

So interesting. My understanding from my Star People,  the Star –  I call them my team, the team that I work with, are, the ones that are benevolent, and are wanting to help humanity. And they told me, that they have this universal law that they follow, that they cannot interfere. Give outside interference with a developing nation. A bit like the Star trek edict.

Yes, that’s right. The prime directive,

The prime directive. So what they do instead, is they have these volunteer souls, those who agree to come to this reality, and affect change from the inside out. And these are the star seeds, the Indigo children, the ah –  our first lot, my generation, came in in the fifties. We were the first lot that came in at the time. We are very human, we are human. There’s nothing not human about us, but we came knowing we had specific work to do.

Yes, now, what might surprise a lot of people, is that what you have just said about souls coming into this material life with an assignment. Was part of mainstream Christian belief, right at the beginning of Christianity. This idea that we are conscious beings before we got material beings. And that we are here to learn something, or to contribute something to a cosmic learning. That was taught by Plato. That was believed by people like Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Erasmus, Origen, Marcion. And it was part of the mainstream conversation, until Orthodoxy began narrowing, narrowing. And then sort of got militarised, by catering to the Empire. All these other ideas that had been pushed to the fringe, would then officially off the topic, and were taboo.

But all that time ago, you would hear church fathers preaching sermons, writing books, talking about exactly this. And again, I think it’s a frame of understanding. That can allow us to live with greater courage. That if we can understand this material, life is an arena for us to learn something, and do something, and contribute to a wider learning. Then I think we can go at it with real enthusiasm and  courage. And without the same fear that we have, when we think this is all there is. And we hold on to everything so tightly for dear life.

Correct. Oh, well that’s – I wasn’t aware that that was an old teaching. That’s very, interesting. Oh so, this is just absolutely exciting times we’re living in Paul. I cannot wait to see what is happening next! Because, I tend to feel that things are about to come to – This year is going to be really interesting

It is!

I said last year, that it was going to be interesting, but it’s going to be really interesting. And I’m excited to see what happens next. And where are you going to from here Paul? What’s your next step?

Well, once again, I find  –  When I started writing ‘The Scars of Eden’, there was almost a feeling that the book was writing itself. That things started happening, that shaped up where I was going to go with ‘The Scars of Eden’. And it’s the same with the book that’s coming next. The path that I’ve been set on by ‘The Scars of Eden’, and the interaction with so many people around the world. Will have me addressing the question what other knowledge was buried along with our ancestors knowledge of ET contact? And where I’m going to go? 

I’m going to sit at the feet of African elders who do tradition, traditional initiation. Because, in some cultures in Africa, when a male goes through initiation as a young teenager, they are often told all the information that’s in ‘The Scars of Eden’. And I want to know what else you’re told. So I’ll be spending some time in that African context. I’ll be spending some time in the Philippines where I have a really warm connection with people, who curated the folklore there that relates to these things. What other knowledge have they curated?

Being in Australia I really have to give a respectful ear, to the indigenous knowledge that is here. Because, there is a lot that speaks to our place in the cosmos. And similarly with my Native American friends. So it’s that, those shamanic traditions. Those mystical traditions. Those folkloric traditions, that can tell us what was the other knowledge that was buried. And just to make it even more exciting, I’m going to show how that knowledge has been hidden, and resurfaced all around the world throughout the ages. So that will be the remnant of that book.

Oh, that’s exciting. Well, I can’t wait for me. Is it going to be next year or will you be waiting a little bit longer for that one?

I’m waiting to find out. At the end of this year, I’m going to do audio versions of ‘Escaping From Eden’, and ‘The Scars of Eden’. And once I’m through that process ,will be in the process for releasing the sequel to ‘The Scars Of Eden’.

That’s a lot of work Paul.  But, you know, when you love what you do, it’s not work, is it?

No, that’s right. It is a lot of work, but it gives you energy. And it’s a journey that you enjoy.

It is. So, where can my listeners find you Paul? What media are you on?

Sure. Well, for the books, for ‘Escaping from Eden’, and  ‘The Scars of Eden’, you can go anywhere books are sold. Amazon, Kindle, Hive, Book Depository, Barnes and Noble. You’ll be able to buy them right now. You can keep up with me on the fifth kind TV on YouTube. Also on the Paul Wallace channel, on YouTube. And if you go to my website Paul Anthony Wallace, dot com Anthony with an H, Wallis, Anthony Wallace dot com, that will keep you up to date with everything I’m involved with.

Awesome. And are you on Instagram and Twitter as well?

I should be, but no, I’m not yet. Well, perhaps when I get a P.A., I can start covering all the bases.

I know. The social media is so hard. I struggle with that. Like Instagram, Twitter.

You can find me on Facebook. And dialogue with me through that. But it’s mainly through the comments on the Paul Wallace channel and The Fifth Kind TV that I get into the deepest conversations.

Right. And the Fifth Kind TV is absolutely fascinating. You have some really, really great stuff on there.  And again, you’re educating the people, and encouraging questioning. So everybody go and subscribe and watch. It’s well worth, well worth looking into Paul and his co-host cover some really, really great stuff. It’s awesome. So, Paul, thank you again, once again for your time. As always, I absolutely love talking to you. I enjoy our conversations, immensely. And I’m really excited to watch as your journey continues. So thank you for your time.

Aw thanks, Marianne. I love walking the Shadowlands with you. And I’ll look forward to the next time.



As I was editing our conversation, I was kicking myself for not following up on a couple of things that were said at the beginning. Or rather, for not getting back to it. But we both just got so caught up in where the conversation was organically going, that it simply slipped my mind. One would have been Paul’s comments about the soldiers who contact him about their experiences in Iraq, and how it ended up being an archaeological mission. What I wanted to ask was, what was the purpose of that? What was the US Military going there to steal? And no mistake stealing it was. It obviously was items of some importance to the US government for them to send the military into steal it. For what purpose? And to what end? Which then begs the question was that whole reason why the US Government went into Iraq? Anything else being simply an excuse, a cover for the real mission, which was to steal these items?

Possibly these are questions that Paul doesn’t have the answers to. And he did say the soldiers, themselves, didn’t know.  We would simply end up speculating. Also, it likely would have taken our conversation in a whole different area – to the area of conspiracy and manipulation of humanity – in a different way, to what we have discussed during our conversation. So perhaps, I can chat with Paul about that next time I get the privilege of chatting with him.

Meantime, if any of you listening have any questions you might like me to ask Paul, then simply email them to me at shadowlands@yahoo.com and I will be sure to ask him.

If anything Paul and I have discussed this episode creates questions for you, then this is a good thing. It is vitally important for us to always question. Because, in questioning you may find answers that you didn’t know you were looking for.

Our bumper music this episode is called Lost Voice from Allen Grey

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