Episode 97: The Betty & Barney Hill UFO Encounter

Kia ora, hello to all of you out there listening today. Thanks so very much for choosing to listen to my Walking the Shadowlands podcast. It’s so great to have you join me today. If this is your first time listening a special welcome and we are glad you chose to join us.

Can you imagine, what life must have been like, back in the early sixties in America, for an interracial couple? The extreme pressures that this relationship must have faced, in an era when much of America was still segregated? I personally can’t even begin to imagine what sort of day to day stresses this must have created, for any interracial couple back then. People were not as accepting and tolerant, or educated – as perhaps they are today. But, still as I speak, many couples in a similar situation have plenty of struggles of their own to deal with, even in this more ‘enlightened’ times we live in today.

Then, as if that were not stressful enough, this couple find themselves in a situation that must have been completely traumatising and most definitely not as accepted. Or even acknowledged as it is today. So this couple had two massively stressful hurdles that  they had to deal with in their lives, both through situations that they really had no control over. Subjecting them both, to the most extreme ridicule and public judgement imaginable, through no fault of their own. This at a time when the US Government was ramping up it’s process of ensuring that anyone who witnessed any sort of UFO activity, and spoke out, was immediately ridiculed, dismissed, and treated as though they were mentally ill. They encouraged this dismissive attitude deliberately, and until just recently maintained that stance. Unofficially, of course.

If you are a follower of the UFO phenomenon, then you may have heard of this couple already. They are the first legitimately recorded and very well researched UFO abduction experiencers. I’m referring to Betty & Barney Hill. Two incredibly brave and honourable people, who experienced such a traumatic event that forever altered their paradigms on what reality is.

This episode, I have the pleasure of talking with a women who knew them and their story better than any other living person on this planet. Their niece Kathleen Marden. She talks to us all about her experiences with her Aunt and Uncle and how the family dealt with helping to support them through all of this. But the question in all of this currently is, are you willing to walk with me into this part of the shadowlands and see what awaits us there? Then let’s begin.

Kathleen Marden

Kathleen Marden is a researcher, author, on camera expert, conference presenter, experiencer advocate, hypnosis practitioner and support group facilitator. She’s known as one of the leading UFO contact researchers of our time. Since 1990, she has researched the perplexing nature of UFOs and the non-human entities associated with highly advanced aerial vehicles via her own ground breaking research, investigation, and experimentation. Her research has extended to archival collections and the US government’s involvement in the investigation of UFOs and its major studies. This has combined to give her a depth of knowledge that few possess. She is the 2013 recipient of MUFON’s “Researcher of the Year” award and the 2021 recipient of the International UFO Congress “Lifetime Achievement Award”.

She earned a B.A. degree in social work and was employed as an educator and education services coordinator while attending graduate school. She is a certified practitioner of regression hypnosis and the Quantum Healing Hypnosis Technique. Additionally, she offers the Awakening Souls support group for experiencers who feel an intense calling to be part of the answer and to assist others who are beginning to awaken to their relationship with nonhumans.

Her interest in UFOs and contact began in 1961, when her aunt and uncle, Betty and Barney Hill had a close encounter and subsequent abduction in New Hampshire’s White Mountains. She spent fifteen years in painstaking investigation of the Hill abduction case and continues her search for new evidence and the scientific analysis of the physical evidence.

She has worked on three comprehensive studies on nearly 5,000 experiencers, two of which she initiated and saw to the end. And has five professionally published books. Her bestseller with nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman (1934-2019) is “Captured! The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience”. She and Stanton worked together for nearly 14 years and collaborated on two additional books “Science Was Wrong” and “Fact, Fiction, and Flying Saucers”. Her book with Denise Stoner “The Alien Abduction Files” includes her investigation of six intergenerational cases of abduction/contact. Her fifth book “Extra Terrestrial Contact: What to Do When You’ve Been Abducted” is a comprehensive guide to contact for Experiencers, those who love them, professionals who work with Experiencers, and the interested public. Additionally, if that all wasn’t enough, she is a contributor to the Edgar Mitchell FREE Foundation’s “Beyond UFOs: The Science of Consciousness and Contact with Non-Human Intelligence”.  Her essays have been published in several additional books and magazines. Her books are available in all formats on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Autographed copies can be purchased on her website at www.kathleen-marden.com

She has given on-camera commentary on numerous television shows and movies. Kathleen has lectured at conferences across the United States and in Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and the UK. Additionally, she has presented video lectures in Denmark, France, Italy, and China.

One very busy lady. My guest Kathleen Marden

The Betty & Barney Hill UFO Encounters

Marianne: Kathleen, thank you very much for joining us today.

Kathleen: My pleasure.

I’ve been really looking forward to talking with you since I first came across you. Now, you come with a very interesting background. And the work that you do today also is very interesting. Ah, as I read at the beginning, before I introduced you, in your biography, it says that you are an investigator, a UFO investigator for contactees, and abductees. You do archives for the US government coverups of the UFO files. You’re a lecturer, you’re an author. You’re a very busy lady, I have no doubt.

I’m extraordinarily busy. In fact, I just recently stepped down from my ten year position at the Mutual UFO Network. As their director of experiencer research. I started out with three people on the team. We built it to fifty people, who speak with experiencers on a day to day basis to just give them support. Because, I have found personally, that what counts most is just to have a compassionate, caring listener. Who is not going to laugh at you, not going to ask you what you were drinking, or smoking, or anything else. They are there to listen and to give you support.

So, I had to step down from that just because of time constraints. I have a very busy calendar this year, and I’ve been working on a two-hour documentary that’s going to air in September, so I’m pretty excited about that. It required a lot of time. I’ve also re-opened my hypnosis business, and I work with experiencers, generally experiencers only. I use the quantum healing hypnosis technique developed by Deloris Cannon. It’s a very gentle technique, and when people come to see me, its, they spend the entire day. We begin at nine in the morning, and we generally finish around four or five at night. I’ve already interviewed them via Zoom, prior to the face to face meeting.

We don’t spend all of that time with Hypnosis. We spend three or four hours just getting to know one another, so that they feel comfortable, and I feel comfortable with them. It gives me an idea of what I want to ask them about. And that sort of thing. And then, I spend a couple of hours in hypnosis with them. Then we contact their higher self and have questions answered. And we can also contact the super-conscious, in order to request healing, for that individual, as we work and move through the chakras. And the super conscious tells me when it has finished with a certain section.

Right. So that’s really important that you take that time for experiences who are traumatized anyway. It would make them feel a lot more secure and comfortable opening up, and allowing themselves to go into hypnosis with you.

Absolutely. That’s so important. And you know, although I’m an investigator I learned quite a long time ago that you cannot be a cop. You cannot interrogate people. You cannot treat people openly sceptically. It’s important to be sceptical, a rational sceptic. But it’s so important to treat people with respect and consideration. Knowing what they’ve gone through, to be able to empathize with them. And that’s the most important thing.  If they have evidence, whatever, sure I’d be happy to collect that. And if it’s evidence that should undergo scientific analysis, then we can do that. But, the person comes first for me.

Absolutely. And I will tell you that for me personally and my listeners know this. And I talk about it from time to time, in different episodes, as it comes up. I’ve been an experiencer in my entire life. My earliest conscious recollection with beings, was when I was three years old.

Yes, and you know, in the first study that I worked on with experiencers –  I’ve worked on three, with over five thousand, at this point. But in the first study, we asked that question, how old were you, ah, when you were first taken? And thirty-seven percent said they were three years old.

Wow. I didn’t know that.

Yes. Yeah, and we found that the vast majority have been taken when they’re less than twenty. I was, as far as I know, taken for the first time when I was seventeen.

Right. Of course. And this is a good segway, it follows family lines generally.

Absolutely. It does follow family lines. In fact, in my most recent study, of five-hundred and sixteen experiencers, we discovered that sixty percent were aware of other family members who had been taken. But a lot of family, we don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to open themselves up to possible ridicule.


Or, gossip in the family.

Absolutely. And of course, being who you are, you would have noticed that in your own family with your aunt and uncle, who were Betty and Barney Hill. Is that the correct?

That’s correct.

I’ve got their names correct haven’t I ? Yeah.

Yes.  Betty and Barney Hill. I was thirteen when it happened.

Wow. I actually heard about them. They were the first ones I had ever actually heard about, or read about. Back in the seventies, I think? That was so last century.

It was a long time ago. They were taken when they were returning home from a vacation. They went to Niagara Falls. And then to Montreal, Canada, Quebec. And then drove home in the late afternoon, entering New Hampshire at, oh probably about nine o’clock at night. They stopped for a little snack, knowing that the restaurants would be closed after that. And then they headed south, knowing that they would arrive home at about two o’clock in the morning. And as they travelled on, thirty-five miles south of Colebrook, Betty spotted a new light in the sky.

And what was so perplexing about this, is that it moved upward. And so, she was watching it, trying to figure out what it was. And she watched it over another, probably half hour, or so. Before she finally convinced my uncle to stop the car so that they could get a look at this thing, that she was trying to identify. And so they stopped and looked at it through binoculars. And it then came in much, much closer than it had been. They returned to the car, drove further south through an area called Franconia Notch.

And so, it’s like a national forest, I think? Or state forest?  I’m not sure, even though I grew up in New Hampshire and lived there for years. But, it’s a beautiful area. There are mountains on both sides of the road. Before you enter from the north entrance, there’s a wide valley, and then it becomes narrow. There’s a beautiful stream that runs along the highway and the mountains. And as you enter, you see Canon Mountain, which was a ski area. Is still a ski area, in fact. And then the old man of the mountain, which was New Hampshire’s state symbol, and it was just a rock formation. Natural rock formation forty-eight feet, from forehead to chin.  

And Betty and Barney stopped the car to look at the craft that was hovering now, next to the old man’s profile.  And they noticed that it was at least one and a half to two times the length of that forty-eight foot profile. And the craft appeared to be rotating and lighted on only one side. They got back into the car and headed south, pulled over again in Franconia Notch. But, they couldn’t see. So, they just drove right out again. And then departed from the south entrance and drove about a mile south of there. When this craft swooped down over the highway. And Barney had to stop the car in the middle of the road. If he didn’t, he would have been directly underneath it. I’ve done investigations where people did try to drive underneath it and ended up inside it. So there was a little bit of a delay before Betty and Barney were taken into the craft.

But Barney was a confirmed sceptic. He didn’t believe this was possible. He didn’t believe people who said that they had had this happen to them. And so he grabbed the binoculars out of the car. He was looking up at this craft. He stepped back for a better view, and when he did, the craft moved across the highway and hovered over an adjacent field. It was now only about a hundred feet in the air. And he followed it to the field, still trying to identify it. Of course, he couldn’t. It was shaped like a giant pancake, he said. And he stood there holding the binoculars to his eyes, and he saw a little red light slide out from the sides of this craft. And when that happened, there were entities, non-human entities that he could see through the windows. All but one moved to what appeared to be a panel. Their arms went up, and he could now see them from the tops of their heads down to their knees.

And when that happened, something started to drop down, out of the bottom of the craft. He didn’t know what it was. Something was dropping down out of the bottom of the craft. He thought that he was going to be captured, like he said, a bug in a net. And he pulled the binoculars from his eyes. So forcefully, that he broke the leather strap. And went running back to the car, to my aunt.

Screaming that they had to be –  get out of there or they were going to be captured.  Got into the driver’s side. He left the car running the door open. He got in there, and as he was entering the car, he noticed that the craft was moving back in his direction. He went speeding down the highway, and he knew the craft was overhead. And within a few minutes he and Betty heard a series of code like buzzing sounds, striking the trunk of their vehicle. And it caused their car to vibrate. And for a tingling sensation to pass through their bodies. Experiencers are familiar with that tingling sensation.

Familiar with that, yeah.

And the next thing they knew, they were thirty-five miles down the highway. They didn’t remember the drive. They had spotty memories of finding themselves on a dirt road, with tall trees all around.  Of observing, what appeared to be a fiery orb, sitting on the ground and of a roadblock. But they couldn’t remember precisely where that occurred. They drove on home, and when they arrived, they discovered that it wasn’t two o’clock, their expected arrival time. It was after five o’clock in the morning.

Wow. So, they lost three hours.

Their –  Betty’s dress was torn in several places. Barney’s best dress shoes were so deeply scraped, that he had to buy new shoes. Their watches had stopped running and never ran again.  And there were shiny spots on the trunk of their car that hadn’t been there the day before. And the physicist who lived next door to me, advised Betty if she had a compass, she should take it out to the trunk of the car and see if, how the compass needle reacted. Now, for some reason, she thought that it was to measure radiation. It was to measure a magnetic field. Was there a powerful magnetic field around the trunk of the car? And in Australia, New Zealand, do you call it a trunk, or do you call it?

We call it the boot.

Okay. And we know that up at the front of the car, there’s a battery. So that’s going to affect a compass, but it didn’t. And Aunt Betty placed that compass over those new spots she had found. They hadn’t been there the day before. And the needle whirled indicating a magnetic field around the car. We’ve seen that so many times with people who have been abducted by craft that I guess listed the cars into the air. So that’s what happened. Barney had a great deal of difficulty with what had happened to him. And Betty, he said to Betty, don’t ever tell anyone about this. We just have to forget about this. No good could ever come of it. But Betty was curious. She wanted to know what this was all about. So, she took the first book she’d ever read about UFOs out of the Portsmouth Public Library. They lived in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. And in it there was an address, and they – ah, she sat down with Barney, she was the typist.  

She wrote a letter to Major Donald Keyhoe, who was the head of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. They had already made a report to Pease Air Force Base. They had been told by my father’s friend that Pease Air Force Base was collecting reports on UFO sightings. So, they made a report there. They made a report to NICAP. And then a NICAP investigator went to their home and investigated their case. Interviewed them separately and together, for a period of six hours. A long time, yeah. And so, I was privy to all of this information.

Growing up, we were a close family. Betty and Barney came to Kingston, New Hampshire, where I lived across the street from my grandparents, Betty’s parents, at least once a week. Sometimes twice a week. And so, we followed this all through. Betty had a series of dreams just before she woke up in the morning, where she remembered a great deal of what had happened. Those are kind of the same theta state that you are in under hypnosis. So you can remember things that have happened to you, especially if you have some anxiety that needs to be worked through. And she apparently did.

But, Barney was the one who continued to want to forget about this. Betty wouldn’t let him due to her curiosity. And he ended up actually developing bleeding ulcers, high blood pressure. He was hospitalized, because of the bleeding ulcers. He was, had to take a three month leave of absence from his job. And this is when his medical doctor referred him to Dr Benjamin Simon, who had become famous for the work that he did with men returning from the front during World War II. And they were treated by Dr Simon and other psychiatrists, at the Mason General Hospital in Long Island, New York. He developed a special technique using deep trans-hypnosis. And sometimes he had to use, as an adjunct therapy Phenol –  Sodium Pentothal.

And so he used this deep trans-hypnosis to get to the crux of the matter on why these soldiers were returning with physiological problems that were psychogenically induced. And so, he was a perfect person for Barney to see, given Barney’s situation with life threatening, bleeding ulcers. And so, Barney saw him. Betty went too and she said that she would like to be hypnotized. She wanted to know if her dreams gave any indication of what really happened that night. So Dr Simon agreed to take them separately. And to reinstate the amnesia at the end of each session so they couldn’t remember what they had told him so he could compare their statements.

Right. That’s actually clever thinking. Can I? Before you continue, can I ask what age with were they when this happened?

Barney was thirty-nine and Betty was forty-one. I think that there’s a good possibility that they were taken, prior to that time, but didn’t remember it.

I would say so. Yeah. That doesn’t seem to me like that would be the first encounter, for sure. Yeah. And did, did I read correctly that Betty had an amniocentesis test? When she . . .

Yes! On the craft, years before we were using it in here

Yes. I remember  . . .

There no way she would have known about that, as far as I know. She wasn’t a medical researcher.

Yeah, I remember that specifically, being a nurse myself. That bit really stuck out for me, because, like, how would she know? It wasn’t a common, it wasn’t a test that was done back in those days.

And Betty was on the craft, and the examiner produces very large needle and connected to a tube. And she said, what are you going to do with that? And of course, this was telepathic communication. And he said to her, he or she said to her, it’s only a simple kind of a pregnancy test. And she said, well, that’s no pregnancy test here. Don’t do it. It will hurt. And he did it anyway, causing excruciating pain. But, the leader – the one she called the leader, who was the escort. As experiencers, we see that individual time and time again through our lifetime, and are familiar with them, and generally like them. He took her pain away. So she began to trust him.

And when the examiner finished, went to another room. She got dressed. She put her dress back on. And he had – actually they had broken the zipper. There was a two inch tear in the stitching. There was a one-inch tear in the thick zipper fabric. And they didn’t know how to unzip a zipper, it was struggling with it. So Betty had to reach behind and unzip it for them. And so she put her dress back on, and she started looking around the room. She found what was like a tablet. She called it a book, because, of course, we didn’t have computer tablets then. But that’s the way she described it to me in two-thousand and one when I asked her to write down, just to sketch some of the symbols that she saw in that tablet. And she did. And I wrote about it in the second edition of ‘Captured’

There was a study done by two academic scientists and Budd Hopkins, who was a leading investigator. A pioneer investigator in the United States, and he hypnotized many experiencers. And they also remembered being, or seeing these symbols on a craft. So what the scientist Dr Don C Donderi and Dr Stuart Appelle were doing is attempting to find out if people could just be hypnotized and imagine these symbols. Or , if they had actually seen these and had sketched them. So they ended up finding that the experiencers symbols were very much alike. They were two different types, but each type was nearly identical. And then the students who took part in the study, who had not had an experience with UFOs, symbols were very different than the other group of the experiencers.

And so Dr Donderi saw the symbols in the book that I wrote with Stanton Friedman, ‘Captured’. And he asked me if he could compare those symbols, if I minded. I said, no, absolutely not. So he did. And he said Betty’s symbols were nearly identical to many of the symbols in the studies that he had done. So, that was further scientific evidence that this was a real event. And so, Betty then asked the leader, I know you’re not from around here. Where’s your home port? And so, he produced this three dimensional star map, or maybe like a holographic image. And it had stars that were connected by solid lines and dotted lines and some smaller stars that weren’t connected at all. But the solid lines were about the size of the stars were about the size of maybe nickels. Maybe one was a little larger than that. And they were connected by five solid lines.

And then there were other stars that were smaller and still connected by solid lines. And she asked, Well, what’s, what’s this? And she was made to understand that those were trade routes. Those were places that they went through to one, our sun – eventually we found out was had two lines going there. So, they had made at least two expeditions or not expeditions, but trade roots to the planets in our solar system. And then, there were other stars that were connected by dotted lines. And she was made to realize those were expeditions. So those stars on Betty’s map, the two in the foreground we discovered, were Zeta Reticuli one, and two. And there was a great deal of scientific work done on that star map. It took many years to find a match. We had to wait for our technology to advance

To catch up, right.

before we could. But finally, it did. And a brilliant woman from Ohio was the person who was doing this research. And she found a match in nineteen-seventy-two. Yes. So the important things about the stars on the map, is that all of the stars on Betty’s map connected by lines, are sun-like stars. Although only five percent of the stars in our local Galactic neighbourhood out fifty-five light years, in all directions from the sun, are sun-like stars. And all of the stars in that volume of space, our sunlight on our end, or on Betty’s map

Which was quite remarkable. Not only that, they’re in a plane. So, it’s easier to go from one star system to another. Rather than jumping here and jumping there, to go off to star systems. It was logical to the astronomers who looked at it. Who had seriously looked at it, I should say. Because, there were dis-informants who came forward and said; oh you could throw marbles into a sandpit and you could have a match. Well, that’s not what they were looking for, what the real serious investigators were looking for. And I just told you what they found. Final. So, so important. And one of the astronomers said that if he, or if we had astronauts on Zeta Reticuli those are the routes that we would follow to go to our sun.

Interesting. Very interesting. I  thought of them. And I thought well, of all the ridicule, of all the putting down. The indignities that they suffered, because, of what they experienced. They were incredibly, incredibly brave people. And honestly, I, my heart really went out to them. Because as a couple, they would have had issues that they were dealing with anyway . . .

Yes, with their interracial marriage.

Yeah, so – And, and at a period of time where it just really wasn’t as acceptable as it is now. So, that was an incredibly brave thing to begin with.

Yes. It was.

But to me, love is love.

Yes. Yes.

It doesn’t have a colour, in my mind. And so they had that to deal with. And then that on top of it, what a burden they carried.

Hmm hmmm. And, you know, Betty and Barney were very active in the civil rights movement. They had intended never to let the public know about what happened to them. They were willing to talk to military officers, to scientists, to their friends at the Church, their close friends, and the family. But, that was the limit to what they had intended to do. They talked to UFO investigators, but they didn’t realize that that information would travel.

Right. They were a bit naive really.

In nineteen-sixty-five, Betty and Bonnie’s important political work, caused them to have, to receive an invitation to the presidential inauguration of Lyndon B Johnson. And they took me with them. So, yes, that was quite an experience.

How exciting, yeah.

That was one of the good things that happened in nineteen-sixty-five. Also, Barney received an award from Sergeant Shriver, who was the head of the poverty program, for the United States government. And Betty and Barney had helped to set up the Rockingham County Community Action Program, with funds from the Office of Economic Opportunity. And Barney received an award, because, he was the director of the first board of directors of that organization. He had also set up for the Archdiocese of Manchester, New Hampshire, the Illiteracy program.  Because, in those days, you had to pass a literacy test in order to vote.

Wow! Really?

So he and my aunt were working on voter rights. And then he was appointed to the US Commission on Civil Rights as a State of New Hampshire advisory board member. So he had all of these wonderful things happening. He was a very high status in the state of New Hampshire politically. And then in October of that year, a Boston newspaper ran their story.

Oh? Without their permission?

Five days in a row! Five days! And it was just so shocking to Betty and Barney. And especially for Barney, who was doing all of these great things thought of very highly, except for by the bigots. But you know? And then all of a sudden, injected into this is, they’re a couple of kooks. This is a couple who thinks that they’ve been talking to aliens from another planet. Now this, it just was so devastating.

Oh, I can imagine.

Especially to Barney. He was the one who cared more about what people thought of him. For Betty, hmm, she didn’t really care. But for Barney it was devastating.

Because, he works so hard to get where,  and in those, that era to achieve what he did as a man of colour, was a real feat.

Yes. Yes it was.

Because, they just weren’t given the opportunities like they have these days.

Absolutely. So it was difficult to see what Barney, especially, went through when these articles were published in the newspaper. But, he was a very strong man. And he agreed, we had a family meeting, in fact, to figure out what to do next. And we talked about him denying it. They couldn’t deny it, of course. And so, they decided to go public, for the first time. About their close encounter, not about the abduction itself.

And so, they went public with that. And they were introduced by the public information officer from Pease Air Force Base, who told the people – it was a packed audience. On two levels of the building. Others were standing outside in the sleet with loudspeakers, trying to hear what was being said. And he told everyone, there had been many UFO reports that they had received. And so, he introduced Betty and Barney. And in the audience was John Fuller, who was sort of a mainstream writer. And he approached them and said to them, that he would like to write the book.

And so it took many months of negotiating, before everyone could reach an agreement. Betty, Barney, John Fuller and Dr Simon. Betty and Barney would only be involved in it if Dr Simon was as well. So, it took many months. But, they focused pretty much on the hypnosis and not the scientific end of it really. And Doctor, excuse me, John Fuller being a mainstream writer, was being controlled by the publisher. That you have to, you have to spice this up. You have to embellish this story, or it’s not going to be a book. And so he ended up having to change it. I don’t blame him for that. But, it did cause a lot of misunderstanding about what really did happen to them. And I only discovered all of that when I was doing my research and investigation. And comparing the hypnosis audio tapes with what John Fuller had written in his book. I found out so much had been left out, or rewritten in a proper English, I suppose. Whereas Betty and Barney were not always using proper English.

Right. And probably it would have been better if he had used their exact words, rather than . . .

But,  he wouldn’t have had a book.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s it, isn’t it? Yeah.

So that’s essentially what happened. Betty and Barney, then were in touch with the original investigators of their case. They had stayed in touch over the years with the one from NICAP. But then, there were two scientists from NICAP who had interviewed them in November of nineteen-sixty-one, that they got in touch with again. And these were scientists and they had asked Betty and Barney if they learned any more, please get in touch. And so the two scientists, Robert Holman and CD Jackson, heard from Betty again about what had happened during their hypnosis. They had the opportunity to listen to the audio tapes from the hypnosis. And they talked Betty and Bonnie to participate in a series of contact experiments. We think of them as CE5 experiments today. They were calling them psychophysics experiments. And anyone who did those things back in that time frame when it was known about, was considered to be a real kook. So, it was kept confidential until I wrote about it in ‘Captured’.

Wow. That’s pretty amazing that it was kept confidential for that long.

Yes. Yes

Especially considering what else leaked out.

Yes. And, you know, Dr Simon was there. He had a lot to lose by taking part. And the scientists had a lot to lose if it was made public. So they just, Betty kept it confidential. And I put it in ‘Captured’. And she would be given sort of text that she had try to send messages to these non-humans that she had interacted with. And to try to ask them to come into a certain location and show their craft. And sometimes she was successful at the time. She wasn’t but she found that she had to work on it for at least two weeks or more, before they would come in. And one of those locations was on my grandparents farm. Go to the home of Florence and Raymond Bear at my parents in Kingston, New Hampshire, and land, and you will be invited to, into the house. My grandmother was kidding when she said that. of course. Yeah, but one night a craft did come in. And one night they did hear these, like, measured knocks on the door. And so they, my aunt – my grandparents were terrified when that happened.

But on another, I think it was another night. I hope I’m not mixing the story up, but a craft did come in. It landed. It left physical trace evidence on the ground. It was investigated by NICAP and my mother and I were taken that night. I think that that might have been the first time that I was taken. At least, it’s the first time I remembered being taken to craft. I was terrified. I remember being on a table. I remembered –  I could not remember who was standing around me. And I kept trying to say to myself, I must have had  – my mother must have wanted me to have some kind of surgery. The doctor found something wrong with me. And so, they came to my house in the middle of the night and did this surgery on me. And so, that I wouldn’t know about it. That’s the way I rationalised it for a while,

That’s the way you rationalised it.

Until, I realized my mother and I were taken. And she and I both, remembered being taken to craft.

How old were you?

I was 17.

Oh, wow. Yeah. I can understand why you would rationalize it, like that. Even though consciously you knew that, that’s not true. It’s funny how your mind can compartmentalize itself like that. So you can come to grips, because, it’s so far out of your normal reality that you have to find some way to deal with us.

You do. That’s the only way I could think of it. I couldn’t think of it as finding myself in this different non-human environment with ETs stand –non-humans standing around me. And eventually, years later, I did remember it consciously. But I had an abreaction as I was speaking to a confidant about it. And that’s when I remembered that face, for the first time.

Right. And what did it look like? What sort of being was it?

They were kind of a variety of Greys and just like Betty and Barney interacted with. I have a sketch. I think that of that in maybe, in my latest book. but they were sort of a light greyish colour, maybe a little tones of blue. And they had larger eyes than humans. Sometimes they had eye shields. Sometimes they didn’t. But, completely hairless. They were wearing black uniforms. They had, like, just a tiny slit for a mouth that was low, below our mouth. Low on the chin. Is what I remembered. Tiny nose, little upturn nostrils. No external ear flaps. And, you know, I don’t even know how many fingers they had, but I think they had four in all. I thought about that for years too. Just trying to remember those hands, there were five fingers or four. But I think that there were four, three fingers and an opposable thumb. I think, but I could be wrong.

It’s pretty detailed recollection, though, for all that, Kathleen, you know that’s and . . .

And I went through hypnosis.

Oh right!

Of course. You can remember it then.

Right. Yeah. And I was wondering, because, sometimes like they said to me, in one experience I had, when I was about five or six.  They said, you won’t remember this now. You have to forget it now, but you will remember it later when you need to know. And I did.

Yes . How old were you when you remembered?

Ah, in my thirties. There was an experience when this UFO came down over my home, I talked about it,  I’ve talked about it in a few episodes. And the next day we had a visit from the Men-in-Black.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah. I was only young then. My mum was in her twenties. And I remember it very distinctly, because, they told her – they kept telling my mum she wouldn’t remember. And one of the guys turned to the other and said, what about the kid? And they said, oh, she’s too young. She won’t remember. Well, nobody ever told me what I could and could not remember. And what I could or could not talk about! So, I made a point of talking about it whenever I got the opportunity.

That’s good. It’s good to be able to talk about it.

Well, just because they told me I wasn’t allowed to. That I wouldn’t, I wasn’t allowed to talk about it. That mum wasn’t allowed to talk about it.

When I wanted to talk about it. When I was younger, my family said to me, they don’t want you to talk about it. Don’t tell anyone.

Of course! Because, they would have seen what your aunt and uncle went through, and how it affected them. It must have, like you were talking previously about how your uncle had post-traumatic stress disorder from it. And I guess, particularly in that era when the male was seen as the protector, and the head of the family. He had all that social expectations on top of him, as well as this. So it was harder for him to deal with it.  Because, I guess in some respects he would have felt like he failed, in his role as the head of the family and the protector.  To protect Betty.

Yes. Yes. He couldn’t protect Betty.  And I think that that bothered him a great deal. He was a black man, who was being abducted. And well, when black men were abducted in this country, very bad things happened to them.

Absolutely. Especially in that era, even today. But more especially back then. So he had all this. Oh, gosh, I feel so bad for him. And you guys, being family, would – did you talk about it much with your aunt and uncle about what happened to them?

Oh, absolutely. Within two days of the time that happened, my parents, my brothers and I went to their house. We saw the evidence. We talked to my aunt. My father was sitting in the living room talking quietly with, to Barney. And my father later told me that Barney was describing what he remembered of the non-humans on the craft, as he was standing in the field looking at them through binoculars. So, that part was all conscious recall. So, yes. And then, when I decided in nineteen-eighty-eight, nineteen-ninety – something like that, to write a book. I was going to write Betty’s biography, but it went way beyond her biography. Because, there was just so much information that I wasn’t aware of. And no one was really aware of, as far as I know.

And so, I ended – I did my own investigation. I went to the close encounter route, time and time again. With Betty and with my husband. Without Betty, my husband and I drove the entire route that Betty and Barney drove on that trip. Because, one of the dis-informants said that they had been driving for sixteen hours straight. And that was false, maybe sixteen hours on the entire trip, over a few days. But, it’s just the disinformation that’s been disseminated to the public.


And this is a dis-informant said that Betty and Barney had been driving so many hours. They were hallucinating when they thought they saw this craft. And so, I wanted to know if my husband and I would be hallucinating in that time frame. Since we followed, we stayed in the same area where Betty and Barney stayed. We travelled on the old roads, not the super highways we have today. On the roads they drove on in nineteen-sixty-one. So we just did everything the way they did. And I can tell you, we were not hallucinating. And we were twenty years older than Betty and Barney, when we did that, than they were.

So, I investigated this time and time again. I played Devil’s advocate with my aunt, going over every – all of the details over and over again. I had, she gave me the hypnosis tape. I transcribed them for comparative analysis. So I have the comparative analysis in ‘Captured,’ but it’s not this boring comparative analysis. I did statements after statement. I wrote it in a very readable way. And it actually proved that this was not a dream. This was not a hallucination. They actually had this experience, and it was borne out by their separate statements, that were different than a series of dreams that he had. In many of the details. So did a tremendous amount of research. I have all of the archival records, the letters to and from investigators and scientists and Doctor Simon. And so many others, and put all of that information in the book.

Wow. That’s a lot of work. But, it’s a labour of love eh?

It was I mean, I did 15 years of investigation before that book was finished.

Wow. That’s pretty, that’s pretty intense. And not only that, you had all the inside information that other people probably didn’t have as well.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I had everything. So, I’m sort of like a walking Betty Hill in a sense, at this point.  I wish she did appoint me as her spokesperson after learning all of this information. I took care of her when she was dying from cancer. Lived in that house, had some very interesting, maybe ET experiences there a couple of times, it’s in the book. And. I think I know everything there is to be known about that experience and a lot about her life as well.

Right. I would say so. You know, from both angles.  From the research, you did. And from the family, just being around them. And growing up around them. You know, to me, your aunt and uncle were probably the bravest people. And they really allowed other experiencers to come forward, because of that. To me, like I’m getting emotional, this is ridiculous. But to me, they were real heroes.

I agree.

They were real heroes in my eyes. And their experience is the first credible, recorded experience. Verified many decades after the experience. By the information that Betty shared on the star systems, alone.

And, yes, the star systems. And I’ve continued to, as we have developed scientifically, to ask scientists to do chemical analyses, DNA analyses, the symbol study that’s in the new book. And so, there’s a lot of new information that we’re finding out now. Like a very rare metal that was found on Betty’s dress, that has an extraordinarily high melting point. Did that? Did Betty pick that up off the floor when her dress dropped to the floor, when she was going to be examined?

That’s really interesting. You know, who might be good for you to contact if you haven’t already heard of him? Professor Arvi Loeb

Yes. I know who he is, but I haven’t contacted him.

He would be really. I interviewed him last season, on Oumuamua. He might be able to give you some astrological perspective because he’s an astrophysicist at Harvard

And I worked with, I  have talked to many astrophysicists as I’ve – in the years that I’ve gone through my research and investigation with experiencers. Dr Claude Swanson is one of them that I spoke with. Dr Claude Swanson, who is very well known in the United States as an astrophysicist and theoretical physicist. And . . .  I don’t know why I’m having difficulty with my memory this afternoon. But, another astrophysicist who worked at Harvard, at the Harvard MIT Smithsonian Astrophysics Laboratory, Rudy Schild

Ah, I’ve heard of him.

Dr Rudy Schild. He worked with Susie Hanson.

I was just going to say I know. Suzy’s a friend of mine. I thought I recognised that name.

Yes. So I spoke with him. I wanted to know, is it even scientifically possible for ETs to pass through a solid surface and to pass humans through solid surfaces? And what they told me was absolutely it is possible! And we have done it on a small scale in a laboratory, using neutrinos. We have a long way to go as humans. But, it’s possible because I was told the, and I’m not a physicist. I took one, high school physics class. But what they told me is that the atom is ninety-nine point nine percent empty space.


And all you have to do is align the frequency and the phase. And atoms can interpenetrate. So all it takes is the technology to be able to, and the know-how to be able to do that. And eventually, we’ll probably be able to do that if we heed the ETs advice and save our planet.

Quantum physics. Amazing stuff.

Yes, yes it is.

Amazing stuff! Oh, I love quantum physics. It’s really, really interesting. You know, like I often say to people, well, you know, that chair that you’re sitting on, isn’t actually a solid object. It’s just a mass of atoms.


But, it appears solid

Yes. So everything has a vibrational frequency. Everything is in motion.

Interesting, isn’t it? Very, interesting.  So, at the end of your aunt’s life –  did Barney die before Betty? Did he?

Unfortunately, Barney died in February of nineteen-sixty-nine from a massive cerebral haemorrhage. He was only 46 years old.

That was quite, that’s young.


I wonder if that may have been brought on perhaps through the stress, you know? Raising the blood pressure and stuff like that.

I suspect that it did. But, he was also in a percussion accident during World War Two. In fact, he had, like, shrapnel scars in and on his chest. And he lost his teeth as a result of that, too. And so, that might have weakened the veins in his head.

Oh, absolutely. Could have, or you know, the shrapnel could have wandered. Because, they didn’t always get the shrapnel out. Often times they left it in, you know. And it can travel. Oh, that’s tragic.  Poor Betty. And she lived for quite a long time after his passing?

Yes, she did. She died in two-thousand and four at age eighty-five.

That’s a good life.

It was.

It was how hard for her, though. And that meant that she had to go through most of that by herself.

Yes. She never remarried. But, she and Barney had a very special relationship. They were like two peas in a pod. In a sense. They weren’t the same people. But, they were so close, and loved one another so much that was so difficult to, to lose, Barney.

Yeah. For all of you. But, I can understand how it was for Betty. That’s really hard. And the interest in them never, has never really died down to this day.

That’s correct. They were incredible people. The first scientifically investigated case and credible case with a lot of evidence as well. So it was an extraordinary experience.

Yeah, extraordinary.

We’re reaching a time, I think, where there are major things that are threatening our planet. They’ve been giving this information to us as far back as nineteen-fifty-four, that I’ve found in my investigations


The problem with our failure to take care of our planet’s environment. And I really think that probably this, these covid infections that are coming and becoming worse. Rather than not as virulent as they as, the morph.  I’m trying to think of the word for it?


As they mutate. Yes. Thank you. So, as they mutate, they’re becoming worse, it appears, than the original. And – But, I think that there has been a negative, collective consciousness in this world for some time. Particularly, in the United States over the past four, or more years, probably eight years. And then, so much destruction to Gaia, to Mother Earth. Where she just feels the need to shake some of us off.

Tell you what. My guys said to me –  My team, my star people said to me back in eighty, in the eighties. They said to me, Marianne, the earth’s being held like a baby. And they gave this rocking motion, so she won’t move before time, before people are ready. So they’ve been holding her in position, to stop some of the Earth changes, before enough people were awakened spiritually. They said to me that there had to be a certain level – Humanity had to reach a certain level of awareness, before the physical changes would start to take place. So humanity had a chance to catch up, I guess, for want of a better word. And they said once that point had been reached, which was about three years ago, I felt the energy shift when it happened. And I immediately posted in my Facebook group that I have that this podcast started from. That this shift had just occurred and what would happen from here on in. That there’d be a polarization of people. And that’s when the me-too movement started. People started standing up, and really standing up for what’s right. For the planet, for justice, you know? For things that they would have let slip a few years before. And this is what my people told me.

You know, like, they’ve been training me my entire life, like you probably. Like, when I started being taken up, I have recollections of being in a classroom – like settings, in learning situations. With children my own age, around my own age, as I grew up. They were always around about my age. And they were teaching me things, and preparing me. And part of what I’m doing now is what they were preparing me for. And that’s educating people, in different ways. That’s one of the reasons I started the podcast, was to at least get people questioning what they regard as the norm.

Yes. Absolutely. It’s so important. And I had a little difficulty with that initially, because, my background is in science. As a social scientist. And I worked with nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman for fourteen years.

Oh, wow. Right!

We wrote three books together. And so I was, I had a dilemma. On how I was going to introduce this information, and I would never repeat anything that the ETs told me, unless other people had also verified that. And so, I always had open ended questions and studies that we worked on. And so, the main message that was given to me and so many others, is that our spiritual development is out of sync with our technological progress.


And when that occurs, it creates a huge problem. And it could possibly lead to the destruction of our planet. Not the planet itself, but to life on this planet. And so, that’s, that’s the message. So what we have to do is to raise that level of spirituality. And by doing that, it’s to raise the collective consciousness.


So that through our positive work, through our positive thoughts –  I was reading a Native American chief’s message to humanity last night on Facebook, in fact. And what he was saying, is when these unhappy things happen, don’t plunge into depression. Don’t focus on that, rejoice. He said dance, sing, play music, because, we need to keep that – He didn’t say collective consciousness but that’s what I’m calling it. We need to keep that high. If we don’t, we won’t be able to save this planet.

Yeah. And that’s the message that our star people have been teaching those of us who are experiencers. Not so much the contactees, because, that’s a bit different. I’m sure you’ve noticed the difference?

Oh, absolutely!

Yeah. But for experiencers that’s a message that they’ve taught us.  From the time they would take us, is you have to look after this planet. People have to raise their awareness. You have to do, you have to –  I came in in fifty-six. Fifty-six is when I was born. So I came not long after they started with atomic testing.

Yes. Yes. And the atomic testing has created huge problems, for them. They worked with a Navy Admiral, the ETs. And he was actually a Rear–Admiral, from the state of Maine. And the Canada’s director of, of – He was the head of the radio technology. And he was also the head of their UFO study. And I was very lucky to acquire their correspondence files from Admiral Knowles granddaughter. I was looking for that, because, my Aunt Betty Hill knew Admiral Knowles and his wife. And so I was able to acquire those. And there was talk of a secret study that was being done by the US government with these ETs. And the information that was given is that when there is a detonation of a thermonuclear weapon, it tears into the dimensions.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

And it creates big problems for all of the dimensions, not just Earth. They were here, they said, reconstructing our magnetic lines. Fault lines is what they called it. In order to help this planet, back then. But, you know, they have to help themselves and it’s such a concern to them. Our behaviour, is a concern to everyone else out there.

Right. And I can actually validate that magnetic line work, because, some of the work my Star People had me do initially, in my thirties. Was, they sent me to specific sites in New Zealand. To re-activate the energies there, or to –  They would channel in an energy through me. I would  feel it come in and go through me into the ground. And it was to align something . . .

I’m feeling that energy right now.


Through my head. Did they tell you to plant anything?

No, no. no. I just took myself here and I’d feel it go through my body. I’d feel it go into the ground. And I would, ah like, physical I’d feel a little bit dizzy. Sometimes, I kind of had to, kind of brace myself a little bit, but it was never lasted very long. It was only like a matter of seconds, a minute, maybe. Yeah.

Well, I know a couple here. Who are friends of mine. Who travelled all over Canada, the United States, and Mexico, Central America doing the same thing, but they were planting crystals and things. In certain areas.

The only other place that my people sent me to, and I waited 25 years to go there.  Was Uluru, in Australia.

Oh, ah ha. Yeah. So it’s great that people are working with the ETs in order to try to save this planet. And make things right again.

Yeah. Absolutely. I actually put out a –  when covid first came out ­– I probably have a little bit of a different viewpoint to you about. . . Like I always say to people, there are ETs that are benevolent that want to help us. Are those that aren’t. And then are those that are just neutral? They just watch.

That’s what I found as well.

Yeah. And not all – And those who currently control this reality, as we are aware of it, are not benevolent to humankind. So, there’s been situations, negotiations, going on for a while. And they like to keep the fear factor ramped up, because, humans are easy to control if they’re in fear.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s so unfortunate.

It is. So I put out this podcast saying, look, this is happening. This is my understanding of what has happened, that these situations have been created, so people will react in a fear based state. And try to not buy into the fear, try to do things – Look around with, see where you can help your neighbours, things that take you out of that fear state. Because, the energy that you were talking about is very prevalent at the moment. So many people that are in fear in my group, from all over the world. Because, my group members are from all over the word, they’re in fear. Fear of catching covid. Fear of losing their livelihood. Fear of losing their homes. Fear of not been able to feed their children. Fear of something happening to their loved ones. There’s so much fear. And on top of that, you’ve got the natural Earth changes that are occurring. And military things that are happening, in certain situations. So there’s a whole lot of fear energy in the world at the moment. And you know, it’s like trying to let people know that you don’t need –  don’t buy into the fear you don’t need . . .  If you’re feeling anxious, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, turn the TV off.

Oh, absolutely!

Go for a walk, ground yourself. Do things. Look for somebody down the street. . .

Oh yes, nature is so important.

Yeah, very, very important. Wow, what an exciting life you’ve had.

It’s been so satisfying feeling. And I’m still, like the scientist on Search, in search of the answers. So, I’ll continue as long as I can.

Yeah, absolutely and I don’t blame you.. One last question before we wrap up about what is your viewpoint on the so called disclosure just given by your government a Clayton’s disclosure? Do you remember Clayton’s alcoholic drink? That was non-alcoholic.That’s like that’s like, maybe it might have been a Kiwi thing. They brought this alcoholic drink out in the seventies. It tasted alcoholic, but it had no alcohol in it. So it really had no content. And that’s why this, to me, was a Clayton’s report.

I think they called it Odules over here in the United States. But, yes, it was. I didn’t expect a lot from the United States government to tell you the truth, because I, in archival collections and with Stanton Friedman. We studied the history of government involvement in the investigation of UFOs, the findings, their decision to cover up their findings, and those who are involved in the cover up, what they did to case after case of innocent people who had had these experiences with compelling evidence. And so I never anticipated a lot of disclosure.

But, you know, we got a little bit. But what really bothered me, is working up to this disclosure. Over the maybe seven or eight years, we have not had the dis-informants who came on to television programs, when there was a show about UFOs, and told a false story. They had taken that part of it out. But I had been watching and I was wondering, are they going to test the American public on this, with this limited exposure? But then, are they going to clamp the lid shut on experiencers. And try to give disinformation to the American public about that? And that’s what’s going on again, here now.  There’s Travis Walton case is being ugly. It’s not just not that

I saw that!

Another one, Betty and Barney Hill, that is being attacked as well. And experiencers, I think, are going to be attacked. I recently spoke with a large group of experiencers, and I was told that they sense that there is a witch hunt that is going to be taking place. And what do we do about that? You know, people will be hurt. The only thing you can do is to ignore those nasty people. Know where they come from. They’re working for the government. And just completely ignore them. Go on with your life. Don’t answer any questions or any charges that they make against you. Because, if you do, they’re going to come in like a shark attack and just take bites out of you. And it’s gonna lower your vibrational frequency and stay up here. Stay where you are. That’s the important thing, don’t let them drag you down.

Yeah, that’s right. I’ve heard that, too. Like, Suzy herself has been saying that she’s been hearing similar, that people are feeling the urge to be quiet at the moment. No, not me. I’m still speaking out now. I’m not going to stop. You know, because that’s what I do. But for me, like you know, I’ve had ridicule my entire life. Because, I’ve always spoken out about my experiences, you know? So, I’m at a stage in my life where I don’t care. You know, I’m going to speak my truth because that’s who I am.

Good for you!

And that people can accept it or reject it. It makes no difference to me. I know what I know. And I don’t need validation from anybody else, you know? And I think my –

Go ahead. I’m sorry.

I think partly that comes with age though.

Yes, I think it does. I think it does. When you get to the point where you really have nothing to lose. You’re no longer working in your profession, as you once did, at least for me. I was thirteen in nineteen-sixty-one. So, I’m an older person and I am fearless. And I just let these people roll off my shoulders. My goal is to help experiencers. To work with experiencers. If the government doesn’t want the public to know about it, that’s fine with me. My focus is on experiencers.

Absolutely. But, you know, my people said to me back in the eighties. That the governments of the world had been given a limited amount of time, in which to disclose information to everybody. Otherwise, the choice would be taken out of their hands.

Well, what the ETs said to us through Kevin Briggs, is that they had gone around to the heads of state all over the world. And to the major business leaders, and they were not interested in having visible exposure, and disclosure. So, they said then they went to the people themselves. And they say that when we have reached a certain level where more than fifty percent of the world knows about this, knows that it’s real, then it will be, everything will be good. Everything will be fine.

The disclosure will come from us.

Yes. It’s going to come from experiencers. And they’re showing themselves more and more and more.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s exciting, actually. It’s a very exciting time that we live in. Despite everything else that’s going on, the storm that’s raging around us, we’re living in very exciting times. Because, humanity is reaching the stage where it’s not going to be an isolated planet by itself. It’s going to be part of the greater intergalactic community.

Yes. Yes. And that’s a huge step forward for the people of earth, huge step forward.

And it’s exciting. So, Kathleen, where do you go from here? What have you got in the weeks you’ve got your video that you’re doing, that you mentioned..

Had been working on, a two-hour documentary that’s going to air in the US in September, also writing another book. And this time about my life and my experiences and my mentors and my journey to understanding.

Oh, exciting.

And so I’m working on that. I am trying to work using hypnosis with experiencers. Quantum healing hypnosis, but pretty limited. We had some free time before the variant really hit the United States, and it’s highly prevalent here now. People, the hospitals are filling up. And so I have to be more cautious, but I’m just very busy working with experiencers. I have Zoom meetings, consultations where experiencers can ask me anything. You just have to go to my website at Kathleen Mardin, M-A-R-D-E-N dot com. And it’s only thirty dollars US. I don’t charge very much.

That is very reasonable.

So, I offer that. If people live in the United States, I can mail autograph copies of my books to them. I can’t mail them overseas, just due to the cost. But my books are available, all the online bookstores, ah sellers, they’re there. So you can order them in many different formats. There’s ‘Captured: the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience’. ‘Science was wrong’, ‘’Fact Fiction and Flying Saucers’, ‘The alien abduction files’ and ‘Extra-terrestrial contact: What to do when you’ve been abducted’. So they’re available as e books, audio books, soft cover, hard cover, you name it.

Great. That’s awesome. Now, what about social media? Are you on, active on social media?

I know. Like I have. I don’t have a lot of time to be active on social media.

I was going to say.

I’m not on Instagram. I visit Facebook when I have something important to say or drive, say hi to my friends. That sort of thing, but I I try to have a social life,, to have time with my husband as well and my children. And I have to try to strike a balance in my life, in addition to all of the work that I do. Because, I have a tendency to be a workaholic. I have a tendency I probably work eighteen hours a day if I could. But, I have to I have to structure my time and force myself not to continue with this. I tell myself you’ll get all the answers before you die. Don’t worry.

That’s funny. I understand about the social media. Honestly, if I wasn’t doing a podcast, I wouldn’t be on the social media. It’s just, it’s really hard work, social media. It’s easier for me doing the podcast than it is the social media. But, I totally get you. Now for all my listeners. For every episode I do my podcast, I have a page on my podcast website, www.walkingtheshadowlands.com, that will have the full written transcript of this episode and links to your books where people can go buy them and to your website. So that will be all online, and you can go there and you can check out Kathleen’s books. Check out her website. It’s actually a really good website. I enjoyed it immensely. Katherine, thank you so much for your time. It’s been absolutely a delight talking to you.

For me as well.

And thank you. Well, thank you for sharing your aunt and uncle‘s story. Honestly, I regard them as heroes. I do. Because, I know – Well, I don’t know personally, but you know, I understand the pressures that were put on them.

Yes, absolutely. I know you do, because you’ve been through it yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. But. they had double pressures, you know, with their interracial marriage, and that. So for them, it was a huge, a huge burden. They were wayfarers  for the rest of us.

They were. They were very straight ahead, in a very positive way.

And I was going to say, actually, before we go, they were doing work that they’d obviously been taught. Preparatory work, to help people. Like just to help people generally, to help the planet, to help people. That’s what they were doing.

They were. They were humanitarians.


We experiencers, perceive our world as differently than the general population.

Yes, we do.

Because of the position we have, we know that we are, are different. That we have a different perspective when we’ve interacted with non-humans from other planets, or other dimensions.

Yeah. You do you have a totally different perspective. Like I was speaking. I was actually speaking with my children the other day and I say, well, look, you have your perspective on this pandemic, what’s going on. And I have a different perspective, because, I can see the greater picture.


And I guess that gives us, ah what’s the word? I guess it helps us to deal with things

It does.

Oh a different level. But anyway, Kathleen, thank you so much your time. It’s been really awesome talking to you.

Oh, my pleasure.

Can you all imagine what life must have been like for Betty & Barney, and then as a flow-on effect for Kathleen and her mum? Intergenerational experiencers. I have so much respect for Betty & Barney. To me they were absolute pioneers.  In speaking out and

owning their experiences, they paved the way for those of us who came after them. They helped so many more to feel more comfortable in discussing our own experiences with Star People, ETs, EBE’s or whatever name you choose to give these beings from other planets, other dimensions. Of course, with the way they were treated initially, this may have discouraged many also from speaking out due to the witch-hunts and persecution of experiencers in that era. But, despite what they had to endure, they paved the way for our generation and all generations that follow. Real, honest, loving and caring people. Just regular folks to some, heroes to me and countless others.

I want to thank Kathleen for her time and energy, not only in speaking up for her aunt and uncle and keeping their encounters fresh in the minds of people. Because, that is so important. But also, for all the work she does helping experiencers to come to terms with their own encounters. These encounters can be extremely traumatizing and physically painful for some, and more pleasant and enlightening for others. But all encounters, regardless of the type that people may experience, need some time to accept and adjust to. Especially because, it alters everything you possibly have known or been taught about the world around you. So thank you Kathleen, for your work, your time, and your energy.

If this episode triggers any memories of possible encounters for you, then if you are in the US you can contact Kathleen via her website www.kathleenmarden.com if you are in NZ or Aussie, then email me at shadowlands@yahoo.com, or visit the podcast website www.walkingtheshadowlands.com and use the contact form on the website. I’ll will get back to you with people you can contact in your country.

Today’s bumper music was called The Alien by Alex Under The Sky

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