Episode 84: Escaping From Eden – Encore

Hi everyone, welcome back. It’s really great to have you all listen in again. An especially big welcome to all new listeners. Today I have a guest, one who found that he had to alter his paradigm on deeply held beliefs he had for over 30 years. When he did this, he found answers to questions that had bothered him for all that time. Altering his paradigm and perspective has taken him on a journey that he never would have anticipated. He took the red pill, and saw how deep this all went – but the question is; Are you willing to walk with us into this part of the shadowlands and see what awaits us there? Then let’s begin.

Born in Buckinghamshire, England, my guest Paul Anthony Wallis enjoyed periods of life in Bath, Nottingham, Portsmouth and London. As a youth, he commuted for a 10- year period between the UK and Canada, later settling in Australia. His travels have included horse trekking in the depths of the Grand Canyon and the heights of the Himalayas, swimming in the Amazon, parachuting in Australia, and surviving a charging rhinoceros in Zambia – along with more peaceful pilgrimages to Egypt, Zimbabwe, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand and Kashmir. Paul’s studies in languages, linguistics and theology took him to the University of Bath, England, the Machiavelli Institute in Florence, Italy, St John’s College and the University of Nottingham in the UK and to Brazil’s Instituto Pastoral Regional in Belem, Amazonia.

In the eighties, nineties, & early two-thousands, Paul’s work centred on establishing foundations in faith communities, being instrumental in planting six new churches in Anglican and charismatic streams. Since the late nineties, Paul has designed and delivered training for pastors of churches in the UK, Korea, West Africa and Australia. In Australia Paul has delivered courses on the History of Christian Thought and Biblical Hermeneutics (principles of interpreting texts) – and I think I mispronounced that. And has served as a “community doctor” in Intentional Interim Ministry and as an Archdeacon in the Anglican Church in Australia.

Paul is a popular speaker, researcher and author of books on spirituality and mysticism. Today his work probes world mythology and ancestral narratives for their insight into human origins and human potential. His book ESCAPING FROM EDEN has been hailed by George Noory as “This generation’s ‘Chariots of the Gods!’” which to my mind, is a pretty impressive comparison. Paul hosts The Paul Wallis Channel on YouTube and co-hosts The 5th Kind TV  in partnership with GAIA TV

His books draw on diverse sources to explore the realm of spirituality and mysticism, probing the world mythology and ancestral narratives for their insights into human origins and the release of our potential for a better, more conscious human experience. Paul practices personal coaching with a few clients each year. He is a musician, a mystic, a healing practitioner in the Christian tradition, an enthusiastic chef and a barefoot walker. Paul is married with three children and lives in Australia. I would like to welcome my guest Paul Anthony Wallis.

Paul Anthony Wallis

Paul thank you so much for joining us today. I’ve been really excited, ah – excitedly looking forward to talking with you after our last chat, and after reading your book. I’m very excited about this conversation, and to see where it’s going to lead today. So thank you for taking the time to join myself and my listeners.

Certainly, yes. The book Escaping from Eden really came out of a period of retreat that I was enjoying, in my shipping crate cabin at the end of our driveway in Victoria, and in the book, I talk about a – an ultimate frisbee injury, knocking me out for a while, and I take time to convalesce. And I do some study while I’m convalescing. And really, the ultimate Frisbee injury is a bit of a metaphor for a couple of times when the universe is gifted me with some time. And I’ve taken the opportunity to just follow up on some curiosities, some niggling questions. And, there were a couple of niggling questions that were on my mind from my more than 30 years in Christian ministry.

I worked as a pastor. I trained pastors in the interpretation of ancient texts – the Bible in particular. I’ve been a church doctor, an Archdeacon for the Anglican Church, and in all that time I’ve preached many times through the book of Genesis. And like anyone who’s read the book of Genesis, in the Bible – been puzzled by some odd anomalies, and glitches in the texts. And I always thought well, I’ve got to get back to that at some point and just drill down into some of those. The kind of anomalies, I’m talking about, is the kind that any child would point out.

You sit down with a child’s Bible and a child. The child will start asking some very germane questions. Why does God say let us make? Why does he say let us make the human beings to look like one of us? One of who? And then you get to Genesis 3, and the snake turns up, and a child will say who’s the snake? Why did he make the snake? Couldn’t he see something was gonna go wrong? And couldn’t he see Adam and Eve were going to eat that fruit? And why is it the death penalty for eating a piece of fruit?

And then you get to Genesis 6 and you’ve got to explain a genocide. Which is the worst crime against humanity. And God’s a loving God isn’t he? How does that work? And, you don’t have to get far before you will have collected a number of questions, that at some point are going to need to go back and develop a better answer than the one you probably just provided. Well, preachers have that struggle all the time and just like anybody else we’re kept hopelessly busy. And never quite have the time, to go back and say, Hang on there’s something going on there, that I haven’t quite got my head around.

So that was just there – one thing that was lurking in the background. One day I must look at that, and then the opportunity came. But, there was another thing that had caught my attention about a decade ago. And that was when Pope Benedict the 16th, the most conservative pope in my lifetime –  called on the Pontifical Academy of Sciences to convene a colloquium. Which is a symposium of top scholars and top theologians. And, their job was to discuss – they had five days of closed sessions to discuss, and they made it all public what they were talking about. There was about a year lead into this, so we’d all know what was going on.

They were discussing the theological implications of contact with other civilizations! Well, my jaw dropped when I heard about that, because, it was only 400 years ago the same institution was burning people at the stake for suggesting that there was intelligent life on other planets. So why this sudden flip? – relatively sudden flip? And the spokespeople who came out to meet the press, and do TV interviews, and talk to magazines all around that colloquium were quite emphatic that we need to be ready. Sooner than anyone anticipates. They kept saying to embrace a brother or sister alien.

And there’s one scholar, in particular, I’ll remember his name in just a moment. The Reverend Dr Guy Consolmagno, who is the director of the Vatican Observatory. And he said, look we shouldn’t use the language of alien. We’re part of a bigger cosmic family and we shouldn’t be surprised to bump into them, ’cause, they’re in the Bible. He said they’re in the old testament and the New Testament. And, when he said that I thought really? Could I have missed that?  I’ve been lecturing on the interpretation of the Bible for 15 years. Could I have missed something as glaring as aliens in the Bible? And so I took it as a bit of a challenge. I felt it really laid down the gauntlet to anyone interested in the Bible, to go back and ask the question, have I missed something? Are there other kinds of entities roaming around in the text, that we’ve not really acknowledged?

Because, in Orthodox Christianity, we think in terms of God, the Devil, Angels Demons, Humans, Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, and nothing else. And here he was saying no, no there are other kinds of entities. Monsignor Corrado Balducci, who was the senior officer for the paranormal in the Roman Catholic Church, and their lead exorcist – said when people report close encounters, they’re not describing a demonic encounter. And, it’s not a psychological episode. They’re reporting a totally different kind of entity, one that merits serious study. And again it seemed they were throwing down a gauntlet, look into this. So when I finally had the time. I thought I would do that.

But it was something that had been bubbling away at the back of my mind since I was about eleven years old, in fact. Because, when I was eleven, I was very fortunate to be allowed at one of my mom and dad’s grown-up dinner parties. And from time to time they’d let my brother Mark and me go to these dinner parties, and try and keep up with the adult conversation. Which was lots of fun, and they pull out all the stops with the food. It would be wonderful. They were great entertainers in that way. And I just remember this particular lunch. It was when they were discussing Eric Von Daniken‘s ‘Chariots of the gods’, which was really charting at that time. And my ears perked up, because, I’d always been a little bit unsatisfied with explanations of who we are, and where we’ve come from.

If I went to a religious explanation such as I might hear at the primary school, I went to, it just seemed a lazy answer. Well God made us, and they didn’t seem to be able to explain why we are so obviously an animal, and so similar to the other animals – if we’re this unique special creation by God. But then if I went to the scientific explanation, the only reason we’re at the top of the tree, in terms of the food chain is because of our advanced intelligence, and higher consciousness. And, science didn’t seem to be able to explain where that came from. Because without that – I mean all the other animals on planet Earth can live quite happily in the wild. Marianne, if you or I were dropped in the wild for three days, three nights we’d be sick – we’d have passed away, or we’d be hospitalized.

We don’t seem to be very well adapted to the planet. Unless, we have higher intelligence, and we’ve got tools and equipment and technology. And I couldn’t find that explanation. Eric Von Daniken had pointed this out. He had identified this gap that seemed to be a bit of a taboo. I wasn’t hearing anybody else admitting that there was a problem in us explaining ourselves. So since the age of 11 that had bothered me, and in all my explorations as a believer over 30 years, the questions he had raised had never quite been answered. So when I finally had the time for my retreat, in my shipping crate cabin, all these things washing around, and I just sat down with the Book of Genesis, and a willingness to do some translation work. And, as I did that I realized there’s a whole other story, hidden in plain sight in the text. That speaks of a populated universe and a totally different narrative of human origins to what I’d heard before.

Absolutely. When I – I wrote a number of things down as I was reading your book, a number of quotes. Quotes that you said that really jumped out at me. A couple that I’ll share now are:

“So when Neo takes the red pill in the matrix, he wakes up to a new world. Everything he thought he knew turns out to have been an illusion. And Neo must now find his feet in a new reality, and a whole new world of possibilities.”

And then you go on to say – oh, that’s in the second chapter. In the first chapter you said:

“Opening my eyes to a plural genesis was like releasing the break on a roller coaster, and I had no way of knowing where it would take me.”

And then when I read your quote in the second chapter on Neo, I thought – wow this must have just been absolutely paradigm-shifting for you?

Yes, it has been paradigm-shifting. The paradigm didn’t shift all in one go but there really was a red pill moment for me, and that was to do with this word that gets translated as God, quite a lot in the Bible, and it’s the word Elohim. And it’s a curious word, because, it’s a plural form word. And it takes plural verb forms a lot of the time, and then exhibits plural behaviours.

So that’s all the – Let us make in the image and likeness of us, and then – or in a moment when Abraham says that God told him to go somewhere. He actually says – Elohim plural, told me plural, to move, or of the [inaudible]. And, as I started investigating that word I realized that sometimes it’s translated as God. Sometimes gods in the plural. Or false gods, or demon, or demons, or angels, or even landlords. And well, it is possible for a word to mean all those different things. But how did the translators decide when it’s God and when it’s demon? Where’s all that coming from?

And, as I investigated that I realized that right at the beginning of Christian history there were significant church fathers. People like Origin Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, who argued that the Elohim stories were not really God’s stories at all. They weren’t talking about God, the father of Jesus Christ at all. They were talking about something else. And. I struggled with this word. I went to all the commentaries to see how they dealt with it, and they sort of all avoided it. Right? The more I saw them avoiding it, the more I thought this is worth exploring. And so the moment came and I thought alright, I think I’m prepared to accept that Elohim is a plural word. It used to be a plural word and that it’s been turned into a god word at a later stage. Let’s see what happens to the stories. If I read it – reread the text with Elohim in the plural. If you look at the etymology, it means the powerful ones. So let’s reread the stories with Elohim translated as the powerful ones, and see what happens?

Well of course the stories change, but they don’t change in a random way. As soon as you make that change the Genesis stories shift and they line up in parallel with stories from the Sumerian, Babylonian Arcadian, and Assyrian texts. This was not known until the eighteen hundreds, ’cause, we didn’t have a translation key on all the cuneiform tablets, that held the Mesopotamian stories. But, once we had that translation key, and a historic inscription, 1835 – discovered by Henry Rawlinson. Scholars pored over it and they read those tablets. And they thought, wait a minute! That sounds like the story of Adam and Eve! Wait a minute, that sounds like the Garden of Eden. That sounds like the fall. That sounds like the limiting of human life. There’s the flood. There’s the Tower of Babel. And, it became clear during the eighteen hundreds, that the Genesis stories, and further into the Bible, they are summary forms of the ancient Mesopotamian stories – Which was a little bit of a controversy at the time. The idea that the Bible might be based on someone else’s book, didn’t go down very well in some quarters.

But even more significant than that, the Mesopotamian version. The original versions of all those familiar stories are not stories about God. They’re stories about our ancestors bumping up against a colonizing force from somewhere else. From the stars. Other species that turn up, and have hands-on involvement in our evolution as a species. And seeing those parallels, that was the red pill moment. I can never go back and read those Elohim stories as god’s stories, because, they are not. They are summaries of the stories of the sky people, and many of the early Christian leaders knew that. And argued for it, and they got voted out and excommunicated. But there it was, right in the roots of Christianity. And that was what I was beginning to unearth.

So it’s a red pill in the sense that I couldn’t go back and read it the old way again. But a whole new world really does open up, because, you realize there are narratives all around the world. Indigenous narratives. You go to the Australian Aboriginal story. You go to Native American story. Go to Greece, India, West Africa, the Caribbean, Philippines, Norse. Go wherever you like. You’ll find indigenous narratives that echo these stories, and sometimes the Meso-American especially, in very surprising detail.

And so, for a long time, I lived in a world where it was the Bible over and against the world. You know, the Bible saying this is what really happened. Forget what you hear anywhere else. And now, I’m in a world where all these narratives line up and they’re repeating each other, and confirming each other. Telling us something very interesting about who we are, where we came from. What our place is in the universe. And therefore, what our potential as a species on planet Earth.

That’s absolutely, that’s absolutely mind-blowing. For, for people who have – who – I’m struggling for the right words, because, this is something that I have always known. This is the knowledge that I have always known from my Star People. So to have you come out and actually verify for me knowledge that I knew. Is actually pretty, pretty awesome. But, for people who have never heard this information before, or perhaps never looked at it before, like this – this is going to take some digesting for some people.

Oh, that’s very true. That’s very true. It’s funny though I am amazed at how many people I find myself in communication with, who have come to this conclusion from all different kinds of start points. My start point was from a position of faith and from reading the Bible. Other people will have a totally different start point. They might have an anomalous experience that they’ve been puzzling over. Or they might have been reading some other text, or something totally different has led them on to this territory. And it’s exciting to compare notes, and say well what first clued you that this was going on? And we share our stories.

But, for those who are from a faith background, I always say look, I may have shocked you. This might sound like heresy, but just go back and read the texts again. Try out the exercise that I did. Read the text and see what happens, and you begin to notice the episodes. Genesis 6 is perhaps the best known moment where human beings seem to be encountering a non-human species. Not just the Nephalim, look that up. But you’ve also got these passages about the heavenly council, or I would call the sky council. It comes up in one Kings twenty-two. It comes up in the book of Job, and the picture that’s there, even in the current translation of the Bible – is of a council of different kinds of entities. Who seem all to have a stakeholding in Project Earth.

That’s quite right.

. . . and they’re bumping up against each other, with regard to how Project Earth should be managed. And often the question that they conflict over, is the progress of humanity. How intelligent should human beings be? How conscious should we be? How healthy should we be? How long should we be allowed to live? And often these different entities will pitch human populations against each other, to go to war. Well, that whole dynamic – I wonder if anything has ever changed, because, I look at 2020 and it feels a great deal like that. And, I think we’re being given a glimpse into another dimensional way of understanding what we’re all experiencing on planet Earth, and why we’re experiencing it.

And, I’ve come to realize from other sources, and from all sorts of first-person reports. That we are surrounded by all kinds of entities, with different agendas for humanity. Some seem to like us, love us, be fascinated by us. Others are very indifferent to us – treat us in
the way we might treat farm animals, and then other presences that really seem quite malevolent. And we seem to be caught in
the crossfire, some of the time – in the conflicts that that throws up.

And actually brought a really good point about twenty – about twenty-twenty and what’s happening – I actually put a podcast, like a – my thoughts out about what the current situation is when it got really bad here in New Zealand. And I said – I shared a bit of my knowledge, that what’s happening is like – sort of like a final battle, if you like. Because the war in heaven has never ended. The war that is talked about in the Bible has never ended. It’s been ongoing this whole time.

And those that currently control this reality that we live in, who try to keep humanity – the beings that you’re talking about – in this state of suppression. In this state of slavery, that we are still in. Their time is rapidly coming to an end and – and so they are ramping up the fear worldwide. Because people who are in fear are easy to control.

Absolutely. I agree with everything you just said, Marianne. And, this is one of the reasons I love World Mythology. Why I love ancestral narratives and indigenous stories. Because, if – and you will know this. If someone says what you just said, on Facebook, or in a public conversation – oh my goodness, you’re crazy! Oh, you’re a conspiracy theorist are you? And, you can’t have a conversation about it. But, if you go to World Mythology. Go to the ancestral narratives, and say here’s a story. We’re caught in the crossfires of this cosmic struggle. There are hidden powers, manipulating human society. They feed off – some of them feed off low vibration, anger, anxiety, and all that. And there is a conflict over how long-lived, how healthy, how intelligent, conscious we should be.

And you can point to it in the stories. And you can read the stories, and the stories will resonate. And if you then say I’ll wonder if anything is ever really changed? I wonder if that’s the truth of what’s going on? It’s easier for people to join the dots when they’ve come out of twenty-twenty, with an end to the ancient stories. And they begin to feel the truth of it and recognize the patterns. Then to say I wonder if this tells us about twenty-twenty? It’s easy for people to join the dots. And so that’s why I spend so much of my time in Escaping from Eden, talking about world mythologies, ancient narratives. Because they are there to explain to us the world in which we live.

Absolutely. Excellent. Can we go back to – Speaking of ancient mythologies, I really love the way that – as you go through your – and I’m sorry for, for sidetracking before. As you go through your narrative, of the scriptures, you talk about how the snake was introduced. Well, who is the snake? And what is the snake there for? And, and then you talk further on, let me see. . . OK, then you – You talk about how – So you talk about Adam and Eve and you talk about the Garden of Eden. Now, would you like to explain to my listeners your perception of what the Garden of Eden was actually?

Yes, yes. I picked the title Escaping from Eden, as a bit of a tease. Because, you read those words, and you think why would anyone want to escape from Eden? Eden was a paradise, wasn’t it? Well even in the current translation of the Bible – and there’s a broad scholarly consensus, that the current version came into shape in the 6th century BCE. And, that’s when the stories were harmonized and monothized, and these other entities were sort of written out of the picture. But, even if you read the current translation, there are some little clues.

So for instance, when we’re introduced to Eden we are told that it’s conveniently close to some key mineral deposits. Well, why on earth are we being told that if Eden is this beautiful garden where the human beings can live naked and innocent, and just eat all the food that’s there and live this idyllic life? Who needs minerals? Not the human beings. And then, there’s this little verse saying and then the powerful ones put the human to work. And, when you read it in parallel with the Mesopotamian stories, you realize that has a bit of an ominous tone to it. And, the suggestion of many who have studied the Mesopotamian stories, is that the work was not a bit of light gardening. It was mining, mining for key mineral deposits. Now, in Southern Africa, the remains of prehistoric gold mines have been found that could be as old as two hundred thousand years. Not a lot of research has been done on it, on those. But one has to ask well who was around two hundred thousand years ago to be mining in southern Africa? Well, contemporary science says that our ancestors were around two hundred thousand years ago. And, that people have exactly the same design and build as us. But, evidently less intelligent. Not intelligent enough to farm, but intelligent enough to work in someone else’s mine.

And, you read it alongside the Meso-American story and you’ve got in the Mayan tradition, the Popol Vuh. It says there’s a moment when the visiting entities, say to each other; “Let us make avatars for ourselves to bring us our food and do the work.” And so that stated very, very openly what was going on. Eden is an enclosed area. It’s a safe zone, where our ancestors were engineered – to use the modern language for it. Engineered in stages. It’s there in Genesis. it’s there in the Popol Vuh. We were engineered in two or three stages. Upgrading us, upgrading us, upgrading us! And then the last step is a downgrade. Now, this downgrade is reported in the Greek legends, in the Meso-American. And, it’s there in Genesis as well. It’s there in Genesis 6, in Genesis 11. Where we are brought back down to a level, where we can be more easily managed. And, that’s the story. And, there is a conflict that you see in Genesis three between two factions. How intelligent should the humans be?

One character in the translation we’ve got now, it’s the God character who wants to keep the humans so unintelligent they don’t even know they’re naked! And then the snake character says no, they should be more conscious, more intelligent. They should be a fully-fledged species able to enjoy life. And he affects the upgrade. In our version, it’s a little bit odd that God is against human progress and the snake wants it. But once you re-translate Elohim, you realize what we’ve actually got is two factions among the powerful ones, in a conflict over human intelligence. And this character the snake in Genesis, Enki in Sumerian stories, breaks rank and effects an upgrade. But then, there’s all this conflict in the sky council over what’s happened.

Huge conflict.

So, that’s what Eden is. Eden is the place where we were engineered, and then ultimately we get thrown out of that area. That’s the area where the powerful ones reside, and we have to go out and fend for ourselves in the big wide world. And so the story begins.

That’s really – That is quite powerful knowledge that is. And its knowledge that they’ve wanted to be suppressed for so, so long. I have always said to people, ’cause, I’ve always spoken my truth about my knowledge, and I’ve always said to people humans are a created species. They were created as slaves and that’s always been my knowing.

Yes, that’s right. I think that’s absolutely right. And I explored in ‘Escaping from Eden’, what, what does that mean that we were downgraded or programmed to be slaves? If you ask the question what do slave settings look like? It’s not just about being less intelligent; it’s about having a fear button that could be pressed. Because, if we have a fear button that can be pressed we can be managed. We can be manipulated. We can have…. I mean the fear of poverty keeps so many of us enslaved to exploitative patterns of employment. So many people would relate to that right away. Now if I wasn’t afraid of losing my house there’s no way I’d be doing this job, would be the thought of so many people in Western civilization. So, the fear setting makes us slaves in all kinds of ways. It makes us very prone to tyrannical or autocratic governments. And I would suggest you’re seeing a little bit of that in twenty-twenty!

There’s another aspect that really excites me about this though, because, if for instance, you read the Mayan account that talks about downgrading. So that we can be managed. What that story says this is in the Popol Vuh, that our ancestors were upgraded to a point where they were able to do a little bit more than we can. Where they could see things beyond their immediate environment. They could remote view. They had things like precognition. They had better telepathy, because, of all that, they were able to self heal better than we can. And then, all that gets downgraded.

Well, the traditions that have curated these stories of our origins, have also curated mystical and shamanic practices. All aimed, at switching those abilities back on. And the thing that made me rediscover that, because, I’ve always been interested in mysticism, but I rediscovered that, and that aspect, by probing a topic called Acquired Savant Syndrome. Now, this has nothing to do with mythologies or ancestral narrative. This is contemporary science. An acquired savant syndrome is what happens when a person sustains a brain injury, or has a central nervous system event, like a stroke, or a blow to the head.

And when they emerge from the injury they have extended abilities. They have enhanced cognitive abilities. So, just down the road from me, in Victoria, Ben McMahon is in a car crash. He was in an induced coma for a week, and when he emerged from that he emerged speaking Mandarin and far better than he’d ever been able to speak it before. There was a guy who was struck by lightning, who all of a sudden had musical abilities he never had before. Now writes music, and performs concerts. There was a lady who is an artist, who as her brain was suffering from dementia, all her artistic abilities were lifting, and lifting, and lifting.

And there was a fascinating scientific blind study done on that, to confirm that, that was what was happening. And when that was studied, as it is by peer-reviewed scientists all around the world, the leader of the project was Dr Drego. And then I think it was Darryl Treffert? Or, there are some top scholars studying it. The language they use is fascinating. In that case of the artist, they said it appears to be a dis-inhibition of the brain’s visual systems.


Dis-inhibition? Well, a layperson hears that and says what are inhibitors doing in our brains that by accident they can be switched off and suddenly we’re cleverer? That’s the pattern of acquired savant syndrome. It’s absolutely baffling to our scientists. They can see it happening. They can’t explain it. They’re very honest in asking the questions. How is it that our brains have advanced cognitive abilities in the off position? They ask, is it possible to switch them on without a brain injury? And our shamanic traditions, mystical traditions, say yes it is possible. Here are some methods. And so, you’ve got modalities of control conscious breathing. Some cultures have smoke and smoking ceremonies. Some have psychoactive tea ceremonies. They’re all aimed at the same thing. Switching those inhibitors off, to heighten our consciousness. So that once again experiences like remote viewing, precognition telepathy, self-healing, can be part of the human experience.

And when you tell people about those practices or acquired savant syndrome, you know most people, with a little bit of time to process, will say you know it’s funny – almost everyone has a story they can share. A glimpse of precognition. Something they knew was going to happen. They knew, who was about to call on the phone. They knew something had just happened, to a particular loved one. Telepathy. People have extraordinary connections, where you know what another person is thinking, and you might not even be in the same room or in the same town. Everyone has experienced a glimpse of something that leaves them thinking, I wonder if I could switch that on at will? I wonder if I could develop that? And that’s really what the shamanic and mystical traditions are all about.

Right. And that’s one of the reasons why they’ve been so persecuted and pooh-poohed. and made illegal.

That’s quite right. So obviously, the purges against witchcraft in medieval Europe would be one example of that. It was very hypocritical I should say, because, at that time and if you go to the court of Queen Elizabeth the first. She was actually hiring people that could do remote viewing, and that was part of the job of MI5, which, which she set up. She set up the beginnings of MI5. Because, they couldn’t afford to have boots on the field, in countries all around the world. They desperately wanted to develop remote viewing technology. People laugh when they read about – if they read the book ‘Men Who Stare at Goats’.

They’re invited to laugh at American defence trying to nurture these things. But actually, all governments around the world have been trying to nurture that for 500 years. That’s how seriously they take it. But, they’ll invest serious money in it. And, I do think that in some of the archived works, you think about the suppressed Gnostic Gospels and some of the other suppressed texts through the generations. I think they were suppressed because there was a suspicion all these things are possible, and the powers that be didn’t want a general population that was too hard to manage. I mean it goes back to that.


Too confident it could see through too many things. So, that story of the genetic engineers and the Popol Vuh downgrading us, so we can be managed. That is a perpetually relevant story, explaining to us what’s going on.


But I am encouraged to think that the suppressed tradition is the shamanic and mystical traditions. Esoteric traditions have a way of surviving. And that knowledge has a way of remaining in the folklore, or in esoteric societies, passed on from one generation to the next. So that the potential is there in every generation to wake up. And for us to live a more conscious, more empowered life.

That’s absolutely correct. That is just – you just have to know. You just have to have the keys, to be able to see. And your book really provides people with keys, that are going to be so important. And, I don’t know if you’re aware of this Paul? But, just in the past couple of days, the New York Times released an article saying that the US has ships, that are not of this world?

Yes! There’ve been some really interesting disclosures this year, and last year. And, it represents a huge shift in policy. Because, in 1947 following the Roswell crash – and, there’ve been a couple of other incidents. President Truman signed the National Security Act. Which classified all official UFO research. And so, from that moment on there was no public acknowledgement of UFOs or E.T. encounters. The policy was silence and debunking. . .

And ridicule.

Until 2019 when the US Navy was allowed to disclose, that it had been engaging with UFOs. OR UAPs, as we call them today. And naval officials were allowed to talk to the press and make this acknowledgement. Now I don’t know why that wasn’t bigger news? Because it was a huge shift in policy after 72 years.

Then in the same year, we had Luis Elizondo going public, and saying the Pentagon has had a unit, whose job is to investigate materials retrieved, from what may be UFO crashes. And that department has existed all this time. Well, that was a huge admission that there are real materials and that there’s been a cover-up! But now we’re talking about it! This is huge! The Pentagon! for goodness sake. And now this year, 2020, we’ve got Eric Davis, an astrophysicist, who has briefed the American Department of Defense, as recently as March 2020. Regarding materials retrieved from – what was the phrase? Off World vehicles.

Off-world vehicles. Yes, correct. . .

Which is a very funny phrase, off-world vehicles. He means UFOs! He means E.T craft! And, there it is! He’s not been debunked. The government has not distanced itself from those remarks. There’s a drip, drip, drip of disclosure going on. To let us know that we’re not alone in the universe. And, that some of the entities who share this space with us, are technological species just like ourselves. And, have technology that might be helpful to us.

I was clued that this was going on by Edgar Dean Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon. And I think if anyone goes on YouTube and watches everything they can find by Ed Mitchell, they’ll quickly realize that a man of greater integrity and honesty you could scarcely wish to find. And he was very emphatic, in calling on the American government to declassify what was going on. To acknowledge the materials and the technology that we have, that could benefit the whole of humanity. That could end our slavery to the oil corporations, and give us free energy. He was motivated by that. What it could mean for humanity.

He was also motivated by honouring families who’d been silenced, during the 72-year period of silence, and debunking. And threatened, by the US military with death threats down the generations of their families, should they ever talk about what they saw. And, when I heard him speaking about that, and realizing, here is a man who is bound by all sorts of layers of official secrets. As is everyone, involved with the Apollo Mercury missions. If he can say that, if that’s what he is allowed to say, it makes it very significant. What is he not allowed to say? I must say that I’m gonna take it seriously. And he says anyone who’s sceptical about our being in a populated universe. Anyone who’s sceptical about the UFO phenomenon, study the lore, he says. L O R E, surrounding crash retrievals.

And that is what Eric Davis and Luis Elizandro are talking about publicly now, in 2019 and 2020. And I’d say the same if you’re if you’re not sure. If you’re sceptical, just go down that rabbit hole. Just to follow up on information about retrieved materials from off-world vehicles, and that might be your red pill.

Very, very cool. Very cool. And, of course, I find the timing of their release of this information, typical. They release it while people are preoccupied with the covid situation. So, people aren’t going to pay so much attention to it. So actually, when they start introducing Star People, they’re going to say – but we told you that these were real back in…. That’s exactly what they’re going to do!

Exactly. And I had that feeling about the Pontifical Academy of Sciences back in 2009. They’re saying this, so that when a disclosure’s made by another authority. Or, something obvious happens. They can say, oh don’t you remember we talked about this? There’s no issue here. I think you’re right. It’s the same. But, it’s funny they do it now. Because, there are a lot of people locked down at home with nothing to do, other than Google or go on YouTube. So, it’s a perfect time for a lot of people to take note, and just follow up on what they’re hearing from the Pentagon, Luis Elizondo, Eric Davis. Go and search up on Ed Mitchell. And, everyone’s desperate for entertainment. Well, take some time over that, and open up your world.

Yeah. Exactly! And I was told – the release of the slow disclosure, that they’ve been releasing over, over the past years, is not by chance. I was told by my star people back in 1985. That the world governments were told, that they had to release this knowledge to humanity, or it would be taken out of their hands.

Well yes, I can well believe that. I think. That you know there are groups who are very passionate as Ed Mitchell was in petitioning for disclosure and declassification. They’re not happy with this policy of silence over the E.T. presence around planet Earth. But, I think that some of the struggle over that is not just a political struggle. A political struggle, obviously, is what happens if we tell people? Not just in terms of would it panic people? But, how would they feel about their governments, knowing that they have been – had things hidden from them? Those are so significant, and that they’ve been lied to in such a significant way? I think that’s the political aspect, the uncertainty of it. But I think there’s a conflict in that sky council, over this question as well.

The conflict is that the American government made an agreement with beings, that are not – the beings, who have our best interests at heart. And so, they are sort of caught between a rock and a hard place at this point in time.

Yes! that that rings true. I’m a great fan of Star Trek. And Star Trek, in the Star Trek universe, you’ve got the United Federation of Planets. Which has created a league among most of the civilizations out there in the universe, and then every so often they’ll come across a rogue that civilization and have some adventures.

But, the United Federation of Planets is guided by something called the Prime Directive. And the prime directive says, that if you turn up to a planet where the population is pre-spacefaring, you cannot announce your presence and let them know what’s going on. You just gotta let them develop. Well, I do think that there are beings, races, species in the universe who. . .

Oh no, you froze!

And then you’ve got others who just turn up and say oh this is a useful planet. I think we can get some good stuff out of this planet, or the species. And there’s the conflict, and can they police each other? And I think, my sense is there’s a bit of a breaking down of the balance of power in that equation. And I think that the drip, drip of disclosure is because, at some point, the cat is going to be out of the bag. And in some way governments have to be ahead of that game.

But, I’m aware that we’re not the only players. We’re not the only ones who make the call here. That there’s this other community, that Mitchell spoke about this, a community of spacefaring civilizations was the language he used. And there is a bit of a tussle going on, over the question of disclosure. That’s my impression.

The – It’s more about freeing humanity from the chains that currently bind them.

Amen to that!

That’s what it’s about. That’s my understanding. And, the team that I have worked with, since time immemorial, would be the ones that would be regarded as the snake in the garden.

Yes, it’s really – it’s funny. This really confuses people, because, of the way, the edit has gone in Genesis. That story in Genesis three is told of God vs. the snake. And the snake is equated with the devil. So this really confuses people who begin in the book of Genesis. But, if you begin in the Sumerian story, the upgrader is not the devil. The upgrader is not the enemy of humankind. The character Enki is actually more affectionately related to the human race. And, and wants something better for us.

And, bit by bit I’ve had to realize that, that snake narratives around the world are not necessarily demonic narratives or devil narratives. And that, that symbolism is very often used for a faction and a presence that is about helping people be more conscious, be more aware, take our place in the community of species that we share the universe with.

Right. And, actually going back – we’ve kind of gone all over the place, but, going back to your book and to the legends, I was particularly impressed with the Zulu.

Oh, I love the Zulu legend of Unkulunkulu! When I started looking at the question of human origins with regard to contemporary science, I was blown away to discover how many eminent figures in DNA research hold to the view that life on Earth, did not originate on Earth. That it came from somewhere else. And they proposed this theory called panspermia. And the idea of panspermia is that the genetic coding for sentient life has been disseminated throughout the cosmos.

And that, when it lands on a hospitable planet – it basically means a planet with water. It will generate forms of life, similar to what
we’re familiar with on planet Earth. So you have people like Maxima Kozloff and Vladimir Shcherbak who are at the cutting edge
of DNA research in search of the human genome. You’ve got people like Carl Sagan back in the 1960s, arguing for this. Francis Crick the co-discoverer, of the double helix of DNA, arguing for this. This theory of panspermia, life being sent through the cosmos, is a nuts and bolts version of what Plato wrote about two thousand five hundred years ago.

The Zulu legend has a wonderfully cinematic version of that, and their explanation is that life on Earth arrived from outer space.
And they have this story that talks about these seed pods landing on planet Earth, with all different forms of life. Plantlife, life for
the waters, the oceans, and then life for the land. And then, the first human, who is Unkulunkulu.

And, it’s such a beautiful graphic description of these seed pods. With these life forms maturing, and then the seed pods pop open. And out they come, and they found their niches on planet Earth. Well, when I first read that, first of all, I thought, that’s a really interesting story, for the ancient Zulu people to have. Why would you think that life on earth has come from outer space? What on earth would you see, looking around the wildlife of Africa, to suggest that to you? It’s not something that would naturally occur to the imagination. Also, when I read it I thought I’ve seen this in so many movies. Stasis pods. Arks in space.

Hmm, the Matrix even.

. . . cryogenic freezing, taking forms of life into other parts of the universe, so they can seed another planet.

Why do we keep telling that story? Why is it in so many movies? Why is it in so many cultures? Why is it in the Zulu culture? And, I
believe that it’s a memory, that has survived. That’s the story that’s told from generation to generation, even if it never becomes the official narrative. Never gets into our textbooks. Never acknowledged by the government, as this is what happened. It’s part of the human story that has survived, and it’s a way of telling the truth of who we are.

When I read that I thought well, you know and here are these Zulu people these people away from so-called civilization. They’ve retained this knowledge and it’s pretty amazing. And then, I thought of also when I was reading about the pods I thought of how they actually formed humans. What humans grew in initially.

Yes. Yes, that’s right. When you go back to these ancient mythologies with the question in your mind were we genetically engineered? You start realizing that if some ancient ancestor had to describe what they saw in a lab, they would reach for the kind of metaphors that you hear in narratives from culture to culture. So whether you’re looking at a stasis pod that’s described as a seed pollen. Or, whether you’re talking about human life being engineered from some kind of clay. Or, whether you’re talking about a fusion of blood of the sky people with the bodies of the earth people, it begins to make sense.

And you realize that we’ve got descriptions of genetic engineering in very earthy terms, being given to us. And it makes sense in
a way that is quite different, but more coherent than perhaps some of our older ways of reading these stories, where we’ve read
it as a pure metaphor or pure poetry. Or, tried to read them as moral stories. But really, you try and turn them into moral stories, the morality that emerges from them is pretty odd. I’ve come to the view that ancient ancestral narratives or world mythologies are vehicles of memory. And so, when I come to these stories that’s the question I come with. I don’t read it as – in a fundamentalist way where every detail that’s exactly how it was. That’s exactly what happened. And I certainly don’t read it as a moral fable. I asked the question what – why has this been written? What memory is this carrying?

That’s a really good question. That’s a really good way of looking at it. And it also explains, if – looking at it the old testament, in the genesis texts as a historical document, rather than a biblical document. How the Nephalim were able to be developed, because, you couldn’t have a human woman giving birth to a giant like that. It’s just not possible. It’s just not physically possible.

Yes. Now that’s the best-known episode in the Bible in terms of the story of human /ET hybridization. When you try and talk about that in the modern world. It’s, it’s too far out there. It just sounds too fantastical for people to want to do business with. And yet, people who read the Bible know a story of human/ET hybridization. And, it is the one in Genesis 6. The one where the Bene-Elohim, the ones like the powerful ones, take human girls, and hybridized with them, and produced the Nephilim. And, what’s interesting is these other entities are compatible with us sufficiently that we can interbreed or hybridize, but they’re different enough that the offspring are very different. They are what the Greeks called the Titans, or the Bible calls the Nephilim.

And you get to historians around the year dot. People like the Jewish historian Josephus, and they talk about that story. And, he draws a parallel with the Greek stories. And then he says, this is the explanation of why there are giants in our day. It was very concrete and very real. When Josephus was writing, it hadn’t been pushed into the zone of myth and fairy tale.

Right. Right. And there are stories, whispers that there have been bones of giants found. And apparently, the Smithsonian was supposed to have had some. But, they were destroyed or removed. Or, something like that?

Well, I think some of the most interesting finds are often archived, is the polite word.

Yes.  Very polite.

But the Giants is fascinating, because, there were lots of finds in the eighteen hundred’s; particularly in America, of giant humanoid skeletons. And those finds continue to this day. But, they were openly reported in the newspapers when they discovered them. Some of them were very, very odd, that they did not fit with the simple linear story of human evolution. We couldn’t fit them on the map.

There’s a fascinating moment when President Abraham Lincoln acknowledges the giant people who used to live on these lands. I can’t remember where he was speaking. I think it was near Niagara when he was making this speech. So at that time, it was uncontroversial to say there were giants in these lands. We don’t really know anything about them. They’ve all been archived somewhere. Yes, very possibly at the Smithsonian. And yet today in the twenty-first-century people are embarrassed to acknowledge that were these finds, and that we can’t fit them on the map of humanity.

I’m hoping that will change, because, in the last decade so many new humanoid species have been dug up. I’m thinking of the Denisovens. So one example. Or is it Homo Floresiensis? I can never get that name right, the hobbits of Indonesia. I think there is more acknowledgement that there was a great diversity of human or human-like beings on the planet in the ancient past. And perhaps, that allows us to say, and yes some of them were very very big.

Mm-hmm. And also, speaking a diversity of species there, those ones that were found in Peru, was it? With that elongated skulls?

The Paracas skulls?

That’s the one!

Yes! Absolutely fascinating! Now, they have been DNA tested. And, we’re told that, that they are human. But they are human of a form we’re not familiar with. That skull shape, we’re not familiar with. They have, is it two parietal plates instead of three? So it’s a differently structured skull to ours. The brain capacity is larger than ours.

At first, there was conversation, was this head binding that it created these head shapes. And then they worked out, no it couldn’t be that, because, of the parietal plates. Because of the volume of the brain. All we can say is, we don’t know who they are? But then, there’s an interesting ps to that. That skull shape raises questions about human history. Why are there cultures that practised skull binding to try and get their kids heads into that shape?


Who were they, that we were trying to look like them? And then, you look at depictions of ancient rulers of ancient Egypt, for example. And you see these funny head shapes, and then you’ll see headgear that is designed either to hide the head shape or to make it look like you’ve got that head shape. And then, that regal dress – a bit like the pope’s mitre, seems to repeat in cultures around the world. So that’s a great mystery. Why is a long skull, the skull of a ruler? Why do we want to look like them? And, who were they? Because we don’t see them wandering around today.

You know, when people look at the stories of the sky people in the Mesopotamian stories. The Annunaki, as they’re known. Some might say if that’s a real story. If there really were Elohim, or powerful ones wandering around governing human society in the past, why haven’t we dug up any remains? Well, the question is how would you know if you’ve dug one up? How different do they have to look? And, what would you expect to find in the DNA, if we DNA tested them?

I’m intrigued by this, because, we did have the opportunity to test the Summarian’s story in two-thousand and three when it appears we discovered the tomb of King Gilgamesh. Who according to this Summarian story, was a hybrid being. More, more even than we are. He was
a hybrid of the sky people, and the humans. He is the subject of the most ancient story that we have. We have it in written form, from the cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia.

It seems his tomb was discovered by Joerg Fassbender in 2003. As soon as the allied forces were in Iraq, a unit went with him so that he could uncover this site, and then, everything went silent. Haven’t investigated any further. Apparently, in the 17 years since. The obvious thing to do is, is there anything there that we can DNA test? Now my guess is, if it’s gone silent they tested and they didn’t want to tell us what they found.


I think in any other scenario they’d be talking about it. That’s the logic of it. So I do think there may be material evidence, not only of a very diverse human population but of colonizers who were not human. I suspect that there are authorities that have that data but who are not sharing it.

I absolutely agree with that. Wow. So this has been a really ongoing journey for you. So you, you, you did all this research. You wrote your fantastic book, ‘Escape from Eden’. Escaping from Eden? Sorry, Escaping from Eden.

Escaping from Eden.

And it led you down this path, and it’s really opened – opened different doors for you, that possibly you may not have gone down before? How has it affected your personal belief in a higher being?

Yes, that is one of the things it’s taken me a while to process. The first thing it does is it removes a really ugly aspect of Judaism and Christianity. Which is, of a violent and immoral God. Every preacher knows there’s this problem. If you believe in a God of love. If you believe that Jesus shows us what God is like, you immediately have a problem with the Hebrew Scriptures. The Old Testament, reports God doing awful, violent, genocidal things. Often, he is deeply unforgiving and unpredictable, and it doesn’t make sense.

Once you pluralize Elohim, you realize we’re blaming God for things that alien colonizers were doing. It wasn’t God doing the things at all. So my first response was a sigh of relief, oh my goodness, God is better than I thought he was. And then I started rediscovering Jesus in a fresh way. Oh, Jesus is better than I thought he was, because, this whole narrative of control worship and obedience, heaven and hell, it’s, it’s a false framework. And, it comes from the sixth century BCE when those scriptures were all drafted. In a time of us vs. them. Where the people of Israel were imprisoned by the Babylonians. And, they took out everything from their tradition, that they had in common with the Babylonians. And the Babylonians would be eternally punished, and the people of Israel would be eternally vindicated.

That’s the framework that set up the US and THEM, heaven and hell, obedience versus sin. All those binaries, that turn religion into quite an unpleasant, controlling thing. So I was, began to be relieved of that. And then I had to say well what is what’s the real story here? I went back to those church fathers, who said the Elohim stories are not proper God stories. And I saw where they were coming from. They were – if you read between the lines, essentially suggesting. Let’s not have an Old Testament, or the Hebrew Scriptures and the Apostolic writings. It should be an Old Testament of Plato. Plato gives us a really good understanding of what’s going on. He illuminates those old stories, and he’s a wonderful preparation for what Jesus was on about.

And so I thought, gee, I need to read up on Plato. These, these guys, were clearly onto something. What was it? So I read up on Plato. His book Fido. His book Timaeus and Critias. And I discovered, to my very surprise. Here’s this guy, who any philosopher would acknowledge Plato, as the foundation of Western thought. No one could deny his importance and the brilliance of his work. And yet, there are aspects of it they quietly sideline. It’s a little bit embarrassing, because, he talks about an ET intervention in our evolution as a species.

Other entities he called Children of God, turning up somewhere else and upgrading our ancestors, for greater consciousness, greater intelligence. He also speaks about another entity, the craftsman. Who is responsible for forming the world, the cosmos, the solar system that we’re familiar with. And these are all entities separate to God. When he gets to God. His language is really, really interesting. And, it begins to sound like quantum. When he talks about God he’s talking about the source of all things. And for him, the source of all things was a unified field of love and consciousness. Well, quantum is beginning to tell us that consciousness is the prime organizing principle of the universe. We used to think it was time. Then we thought it was light. Quantum is saying no, it’s consciousness.

Plato said the same thing two thousand, five hundred years ago. And this unified field of love, consciousness, intelligence, harmony exploded or fractionalized into the material universe. He argues beautifully, from things we all observe, on the basis of logic. He says the material universe came into being in order for that primordial consciousness, to experience itself and express itself.

And so, the great question that’s upon the whole universe is, can love-consciousness, harmony, intelligence, exist in a universe like
this? Can we do love, consciousness as a society of individual beings, exercising free choice? The picture he gives of the human life cycle is that we begin as consciousness. An aspect of the divine consciousness, the source consciousness. Then we individuate and incarnate as human beings. And we wrestle with these questions on planet Earth. And then, we pass away and we return to that unified consciousness.

That’s how Plato describes the human journey. I read that, and I thought, that sounds familiar. That sounds like a lot of eastern thought. If I go to Buddhism or Hinduism. That sounds familiar. But then, if I go to John’s Gospel it’s there too. Because that’s how the life story of Jesus is described in the gospel. In the beginning, was the word. And the word was with God, and the Word was God. And then the word became flesh and dwelt among us. And then at the end of the Gospel Jesus is praying to the source who he calls father, and he says and now I’m returning to you. Back to the glory, we enjoyed, before the foundation of the world. Well what if Jesus there, is the model for all of us?

It tells me that we are intimately connected with God. We are all emanations of God. We’re all expressions of that source consciousness. Our connection could not be closer than it is. And, you begin to realize that the story of us being separated from God and needing religion to fix it, is really false.

That spirituality is really about discovering the connection that we have. Every single human being on the planet. It’s not about being spiritual or religious. Every human being is an expression of this source consciousness. And the more we discovered that the more conscious we can be. Then the more wonderful and exciting, alive and more confident to life, we can live while we’re on planet Earth.

So that’s how my view has shifted. I see it as very rooted in the Jesus story, but it’s a far more open, exciting. God is closer than I’d ever imagined and closer to everyone else. And it takes away all the anxiety and pressure, and control that often comes with a more religious viewpoint.

That’s really awesome. That’s really awesome that you’ve come to that understanding. And, the beings that I work with, that is their goal, actually. That humanity will come to that understanding for themselves. So that they can break off the controls, and the fear that’s been bred into them.

Yes, absolutely. And see this is wonderful, because, the conversation we’re now having – you’ve come to this awareness through tuning into other consciousness. Through hearing from other entities, and through your experiences. This has shaped your worldview. I’ve come to this through reading texts. Through reading Genesis, and yet we’ve arrived at the same realization.

The same.

And now, we can compare notes. So I love this kind of conversation.

It’s awesome, isn’t it? And it’s like I always say to members of my group, and to people – there are many ways to climb the mountain.

Absolutely. That’s absolutely right.

And so it was very, very exciting for me to be able to talk to you about your learning, and your discovery. And how this has altered your way of thinking, and your way of looking at things. And of course, I can imagine that this hasn’t endeared you to a lot of more traditional – um what’s the correct word? Traditional religious viewpoints – people who have traditional religious viewpoints.

Well it’s funny I was expect – expecting more of a backlash on Escaping from Eden. And sure enough, if you go onto my channel on YouTube, the Paul Wallis channel. If you go into the fifth kind TV on YouTube you will hear comments from people who were coming from a conservative, or a fundamentalist religious background. And they will come in and they’ll say all this is rubbish. You don’t know anything. Go and read your Bible. This is heresy. This is, this is satanic delusion, and all this really strong language.

But you know? About maybe even ninety per cent of the time, when I go back and say Hi thanks for your comment. The reason I’m saying this is this, this, and this. Ninety per cent of the time the person will come back and say, Oh I see what you’re saying. Actually, I always wondered about that? And then we get into a conversation. It’s only a very small proportion, who actually can’t have a conversation about this.

There will be many others of course who are watching the Paul Wallis channel, or the 5th kind  TV, who might find it very challenging. But, I’ve been really encouraged by the number of believers, of different religions. And clergy, and pastors, and academic theologians who have engaged really, really positively – and said, thank you for tackling this. And, many have said, I’m so relieved to hear this being spoken about in this way because I’ve long struggled with this or I’ve long suspected this. Or, had this belief and I couldn’t talk about it in my church. Or, I’ve just retired from the ministry and I’ve now got a bit more time to think about these things, and I think you’re onto something. There’s been far more positive feedback of that kind.

And what I love to hear, is from people who said I’ve been so conflicted over this. I couldn’t work out how my belief in God tied in with these experiences that I’ve had, or I couldn’t work out how to explain myself to my believing family. Or, I’ve always been on the edge of faith, because, I couldn’t square the circle and you’ve shown me a different way of resolving things. And, I love hearing that, because, for many people, it is a weight off their shoulders. To realize that things, they have experienced are real. They don’t have to be ashamed of them, because, they don’t fit into the conventional story. And to be told, actually, there are heaps, in the old, old stories that validate what you’ve just told me.

When I’ve had people come to me and say, my experiences tell me I’ve been part of some kind of a hybridization program. I’ve never told anyone, except my mum. And I can say, yeah it sounds out there. But that story is ages old. You can find it in every culture. You can find it in the Bible. You can find it from the southernmost tip of South Africa, all up the western seaboard of Africa, into the Caribbean, Brazil, Philippines, Greece, the Norse cultures, the Celtic culture. They have all talked about what you are telling me now. And again, it’s a huge relief for people to think, I’m not crazy. This is real, and humanity has known about this for a long, long time. It’s just that it hasn’t been acknowledged and a great taboo has been put on it so that people can’t talk.

And I’ve heard so much since Escaping from Eden was published. People coming to me, sending me e-mails, talking to me through Skype. It comes so frequently. Every week. Some weeks, every day I hear from people who had experiences and encounters that they haven’t been able to talk about. But, they’re talking to me about it. It’s so frequent, that I now think that there would not be a family anywhere, that if they gathered the family. And sat down, and said has any of us ever experienced anything we couldn’t explain? Every family would have a story. Many families would have stories that relate to the fact, that we are not alone in this universe.

Correct, correct. And, it’s been my understanding – certainly of the team that I work with, that they follow families through generations.

Yes, they do. I’ve learned, that I’ve learned that since writing Escaping from Eden – it’ll be there in the sequel that I’m writing on, writing right now. But, I’ve learned that from the people who’ve contacted me. And so, I’ve always learned to ask, did your parents experience anything like this? And sometimes they’ll say yes. Sometimes they’ll say I don’t think so. And then a week later they’ll say, oh my dad’s finally told me what happened to him when he was 50.

And they realize, yes, family lines are observed. And a lot of the time, the observation is quite benign. Other than people have experienced things that they can’t explain, or can’t talk about. Not always, but a lot of the time. And I think this is why it’s so important to lift the taboo, because, if parents could tell their children I had this experience, and the child can say, Oh I’ve had the same experience. You know, when I have people coming back to me a week later saying, oh my dad’s finally told me – you know often these people who have gone to their parents are in their 60s. And they’ve lived all this time, struggling with this thing that happened to them. Not knowing that Dad could tell them something that would reassure them, and make them feel not so weird and not so isolated.

Yeah it’s pretty sad, isn’t it?

It, it can be sad. I’m thrilled when I find other families where – I was talking to a guy the other day who had an abduction, and hybridization experience. And he didn’t know who to tell, so he told his mom. And his mom was able to say all right, let me tell you some things that happened to me. And the relief that that was for that young man, he’s in his 30s, was enormous. And it is such a strength to them, to be able to compare notes with one another. Because in our society it’s still very hard to know, who can I tell this to, who won’t suggest that I be hospitalized?

Correct. Correct. And that’s one of the reasons why I’ve always been so open. And one of the reasons why I actually started this podcast, so that those out there would not feel so alone.

Definitely. It’s so important. And I love the breadth of material that you cover in your podcasts, Marianne, is wonderful. And you know if people are struggling with what, what to watch during this lockdown, they should come to your website. All your podcasts, because, there are so many things you can study there. And again, I reckon you know, if you actually sat a whole family down around your website, there’d be someone saying, Oh look at that one. Because of this experience I had. Or because, of what my friends said some months ago, it relates to that. And, they are all different aspects of opening up the world in which we live and showing us that far more is going on than we acknowledge or talk about. And, it’s a far more exciting and interesting universe than ever we’ve been told.

Absolutely, and we’re living in very exciting times. Very exciting times. I call it the end game. This is where we’re at. We’re at the end game now. The end game of all the secrecy, of all humanity being a slave species. We’re at the end game, humanity – my star people told me back in the eighties, that humanity had to reach a certain point in their spiritual awakening before they could become part of the greater intergalactic communities. And, we reached that point about hmm 18 months ago. Something like that. There was an energetic shift. A whole shift and I knew that we had reached that point. And from that time on, things escalated.

I agree. I absolutely agree. I had no awareness of that when I started writing escaping from Eden. And then when I started promoting it and doing interviews people started saying this to me, oh you’ve timed this really well. Let’s say, because, there’s a great waking up going on. And now, I’m thinking that’s true. Because, I’m discovering people in all quarters, of all ages. Who are waking up in a remarkable way to what’s going on, and who we are. And what the hope might be for the future.

And isn’t that exciting!

It’s very exciting.

That’s so exciting. So tell us before we finish Paul, and I’m so grateful for your time today. I’ve really, absolutely enjoyed this conversation – and I was, I was so looking forward to it. What is your upcoming book about?

Well, the upcoming book follows on from escaping from Eden and just goes into some greater depth regarding the sources of the ancient stories. And then, the credibility of contemporary science. There’s more first-person report, as I’ve had contact with people who are really at the coalface – in terms of access to materials, physical materials. Access to experiences, and so there’s more of that kind of material in the book. But, at the same time, it’s a gateway book. It’s a book that you can give to anyone, Escaping from Eden’s like this. You can give it to anyone with a zero-interest, or zero belief in this territory, and it would take that reader on a journey. By the end of the book, they’ll say, oh there’s something real here that, I need do business with. And so, the sequel will do the same, but it will also take further everyone who’s read Escaping from Eden.

Oh, I’m really excited! I can’t wait for it to come out. How far away do you think we’re looking at Paul?

I’m aiming at spring of next year.

Awesome. Well, it’s not that far away.

It’s not very far away. So keep your eye on my website which is Paul Anthony Wallis dot com. Anthony with an h, Wallis. Paul Anthony Wallis dot com. Go to the Paul Wallis channel on YouTube. Go to Fifth Kind dot TV, that’s our website. Or, you can find the Fifth Kind TV on YouTube, and that will keep you up to date with the things we’re looking into. You’ll find out when the new book is ready to be pre-ordered. And, I’m releasing documentaries all the time that share bits and pieces of this material.

And for my listeners, I will have links to all of these on this episode’s page on our podcast website www.walkingtheshadowlands.com, so you can go and visit their sites from there. So you don’t have to worry about not writing it down. It will all be there available for you. So, thank you so much – Oh Paul, do you have any other social media? Like are you on Instagram? Are you on Twitter?

I’m not on Twitter and I need to develop my Insta-page, so I am on Facebook. You could find me there. Paul Anthony Wallace and the website. Paul Anthony Wallis dotcom.

That’s cool, I’ll link those, and also I’ll put those links on our featured guest page. So visitors to the Web site can find them from there as well as this episodes page. So, thank you so much for your time Paul, I’ve, I’ve just absolutely had a wonderful time with you. And maybe I can get – when your next book comes out, you can return and for another visit. I’d really like that.

Oh, Marianne thanks so much for having me on your show today. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I love the podcast that you do. And yes absolutely. We must have another conversation.

I would love to. Thank you so much for that.

This episode, for some – especially for my listeners who may be of the Christian religion, challenging in some respects. There will be many people who will outright dismiss what Paul had to say – But, at the same time, I feel, that there will be many, many more who will actually go back, study, and look at these religious texts with a totally different perspective. At the very least, Paul’s words will make you think and perhaps question what you have always known as our reality to have been that, in my opinion is not in the least, a bad thing.

For me, this conversation with Paul was incredibly validating, on a very human level. To have my own personal knowing as taught to me from my Star People friends, verified by a very human source, from a very human perspective – that was pretty nice to hear. I have never doubted the truth of what was taught to me from them. It has always resonated within my soul as truth, plain and simple.

These are very exciting times that we are living in. Humanity as a species is on the cusp of true freedom. As a species we have never, ever had freedom, only the scant illusion of choice presented to us, so we are not aware of how deeply we have been controlled. But more and more people are waking to the knowing that all is not as it appears, and that things need to be different. The world needs to be different. We are indeed in the end game and the prospect for humanity emerging from this as an uncontrolled, free species, is becoming brighter and brighter by the day.

With every single person who at the least, begins to question the status quo. Who begins to question what the world’s ‘authorities’, our governments, and world or multinational organizations put out for us to absorb and take as being gospel, we are one step closer to true freedom as a developing species. And for you my listener, listening to this episode, it is food for thought is it not?

Our bumper music for this episode is called Breaking Gravity from Cody Martin, and is available from Soundstripe music licensing.

My favourite music licensing site and the one I have used for all this season’s episodes. If you are needing some good music for a video or any purpose if you use this coupon ‘Walk with Me’ You will get at least a 10% discount on their monthly or yearly license fees, which are affordable for small broadcasters. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to use them. Great variety of music and easy to find what genre or mood you are looking for. Check them out. www.soundstripe.com – don’t forget to use the code ‘Walk with Me’ for your discount.

If you have any suggestions for topics you might like me to cover in upcoming episodes, then please don’t hesitate to contact me. Or, if any of you have any questions, suggestions, or any comments that you’d like to make, or experiences that you might like to share with myself, or my audience – or, if you feel you might be a good fit as a guest on my podcast, then just email me at shadowlands@yahoo.com. Or, check out the ‘be a guest’ page on the podcast website.If you enjoy our podcast, then please consider becoming a patron. Just head over to patreon.com/mcc15 and sign up now. As a patron, you get early access to the podcast episodes and a special members-only page on the podcast website, that has bits that end up on the digital cutting board. And little extras, like the disembodied voices, that I heard during my conversation with Patti. And you can download, full written transcripts of each episode. And you get my absolute appreciation and gratitude. Patreon.com/mcc15

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