{"id":2755,"date":"2022-05-10T09:30:04","date_gmt":"2022-05-09T21:30:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.walkingtheshadowlands.com\/?p=2755"},"modified":"2024-11-17T21:39:29","modified_gmt":"2024-11-17T08:39:29","slug":"episode-109-escaping-from-eden-redux","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.walkingtheshadowlands.com\/?p=2755","title":{"rendered":"Episode 109: Escaping From Eden \u2013 Redux"},"content":{"rendered":"
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Episode 109: Escaping From Eden \u2013 Redux
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Hi everyone, welcome back. It\u2019s really great to have you all listen in again. An especially big welcome to all new listeners. Today I have a guest, one who found that he had to alter his paradigm on deeply held beliefs he had for over 30 years. When he did this, he found answers to questions that had bothered him for all that time. Altering his paradigm and perspective has taken him on a journey that he never would have anticipated. He took the red pill, and saw how deep this all went \u2013 but the question is; Are you willing to walk with us into this part of the shadowlands and see what awaits us there? Then let\u2019s begin.<\/p>\n

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Born in Buckinghamshire, England, my guest Paul Anthony Wallis enjoyed periods of life in Bath, Nottingham, Portsmouth and London. As a youth, he commuted for a 10- year period between the UK and Canada, later settling in Australia. His travels have included horse trekking in the depths of the Grand Canyon and the heights of the Himalayas, swimming in the Amazon, parachuting in Australia, and surviving a charging rhinoceros in Zambia \u2013 along with more peaceful pilgrimages to Egypt, Zimbabwe, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand and Kashmir. Paul\u2019s studies in languages, linguistics and theology took him to the University of Bath, England, the Machiavelli Institute in Florence, Italy, St John\u2019s College and the University of Nottingham in the UK and to Brazil\u2019s Instituto Pastoral Regional in Belem, Amazonia.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

In the eighties, nineties, & early two-thousands, Paul\u2019s work centred on establishing foundations in faith communities, being instrumental in planting six new churches in Anglican and charismatic streams. Since the late nineties, Paul has designed and delivered training for pastors of churches in the UK, Korea, West Africa and Australia. In Australia Paul has delivered courses on the History of Christian Thought and Biblical Hermeneutics (principles of interpreting texts) \u2013 and I think I mispronounced that. And has served as a \u201ccommunity doctor\u201d in Intentional Interim Ministry and as an Archdeacon in the Anglican Church in Australia.<\/p>\n

Paul is a popular speaker, researcher and author of books on spirituality and mysticism. Today his work probes world mythology and ancestral narratives for their insight into human origins and human potential. His book ESCAPING FROM EDEN has been hailed by George Noory as \u201cThis generation\u2019s \u2018Chariots of the Gods!\u2019\u201d<\/em> which to my mind, is a pretty impressive comparison. Paul hosts The Paul Wallis Channel<\/a> on YouTube and co-hosts The\u00a05th Kind TV \u00a0<\/em><\/a>in partnership with\u00a0GAIA TV<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n

His books draw on diverse sources to explore the realm of spirituality and mysticism, probing the world mythology and ancestral narratives for their insights into human origins and the release of our potential for a better, more conscious human experience. Paul practices personal coaching with a few clients each year. He is a musician, a mystic, a healing practitioner in the Christian tradition, an enthusiastic chef and a barefoot walker. Paul is married with three children and lives in Australia. I would like to welcome my guest Paul Anthony Wallis.<\/p>\n

Paul Anthony Wallis<\/strong><\/h3>\n<\/div>\n
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Paul thank you so much for joining us today. I\u2019ve been really excited, ah \u2013 excitedly looking forward to talking with you after our last chat, and after reading your book. I\u2019m very excited about this conversation, and to see where it\u2019s going to lead today. So thank you for taking the time to join myself and my listeners.<\/p>\n

Certainly, yes. The book Escaping from Eden really came out of a period of retreat that I was enjoying, in my shipping crate cabin at the end of our driveway in Victoria, and in the book, I talk about a \u2013 an ultimate frisbee injury, knocking me out for a while, and I take time to convalesce. And I do some study while I\u2019m convalescing. And really, the ultimate Frisbee injury is a bit of a metaphor for a couple of times when the universe is gifted me with some time. And I\u2019ve taken the opportunity to just follow up on some curiosities, some niggling questions. And, there were a couple of niggling questions that were on my mind from my more than 30 years in Christian ministry.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

I worked as a pastor. I trained pastors in the interpretation of ancient texts \u2013 the Bible in particular. I\u2019ve been a church doctor, an Archdeacon for the Anglican Church, and in all that time I\u2019ve preached many times through the book of Genesis. And like anyone who\u2019s read the book of Genesis, in the Bible \u2013 been puzzled by some odd anomalies, and glitches in the texts. And I always thought well, I\u2019ve got to get back to that at some point and just drill down into some of those. The kind of anomalies, I\u2019m talking about, is the kind that any child would point out.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

You sit down with a child\u2019s Bible and a child. The child will start asking some very germane questions. Why does God say let us make? Why does he say let us make the human beings to look like one of us? One of who? And then you get to Genesis 3, and the snake turns up, and a child will say who\u2019s the snake? Why did he make the snake? Couldn\u2019t he see something was gonna go wrong? And couldn\u2019t he see Adam and Eve were going to eat that fruit? And why is it the death penalty for eating a piece of fruit?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And then you get to Genesis 6 and you\u2019ve got to explain a genocide. Which is the worst crime against humanity. And God\u2019s a loving God isn\u2019t he? How does that work? And, you don\u2019t have to get far before you will have collected a number of questions, that at some point are going to need to go back and develop a better answer than the one you probably just provided. Well, preachers have that struggle all the time and just like anybody else we\u2019re kept hopelessly busy. And never quite have the time, to go back and say, Hang on there\u2019s something going on there, that I haven\u2019t quite got my head around.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

So that was just there \u2013 one thing that was lurking in the background. One day I must look at that, and then the opportunity came. But, there was another thing that had caught my attention about a decade ago. And that was when Pope Benedict the 16th, the most conservative pope in my lifetime \u2013\u00a0 called on the Pontifical Academy of Sciences to convene a colloquium. Which is a symposium of top scholars and top theologians. And, their job was to discuss \u2013 they had five days of closed sessions to discuss, and they made it all public what they were talking about. There was about a year lead into this, so we\u2019d all know what was going on.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

They were discussing the theological implications of contact with other civilizations! Well, my jaw dropped when I heard about that, because, it was only 400 years ago the same institution was burning people at the stake for suggesting that there was intelligent life on other planets. So why this sudden flip? \u2013 relatively sudden flip? And the spokespeople who came out to meet the press, and do TV interviews, and talk to magazines all around that colloquium were quite emphatic that we need to be ready. Sooner than anyone anticipates. They kept saying to embrace a brother or sister alien.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And there\u2019s one scholar, in particular, I\u2019ll remember his name in just a moment. The Reverend Dr Guy Consolmagno<\/a>, who is the director of the Vatican Observatory. And he said, look we shouldn\u2019t use the language of alien. We\u2019re part of a bigger cosmic family and we shouldn\u2019t be surprised to bump into them, \u2019cause, they\u2019re in the Bible. He said they\u2019re in the old testament and the New Testament. And, when he said that I thought really? Could I have missed that?\u00a0 I\u2019ve been lecturing on the interpretation of the Bible for 15 years. Could I have missed something as glaring as aliens in the Bible? And so I took it as a bit of a challenge. I felt it really laid down the gauntlet to anyone interested in the Bible, to go back and ask the question, have I missed something? Are there other kinds of entities roaming around in the text, that we\u2019ve not really acknowledged?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Because, in Orthodox Christianity, we think in terms of God, the Devil, Angels Demons, Humans, Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, and <\/em>nothing else. And here he was saying no, no there are other kinds of entities. Monsignor Corrado Balducci<\/a>, who was the senior <\/em>officer for the paranormal in the Roman Catholic Church, and their lead exorcist \u2013 said when people report close encounters, <\/em>they\u2019re not describing a demonic encounter. And, it\u2019s not a psychological episode. They\u2019re reporting a totally different kind of <\/em>entity, one that merits serious study. And again it seemed they were throwing down a gauntlet, look into this. So when I finally had <\/em>the time. I thought I would do that.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

But it was something that had been bubbling away at the back of my mind since I was about eleven years old, in fact. Because, <\/em>when I was eleven, I was very fortunate to be allowed at one of my mom and dad\u2019s grown-up dinner parties. And from time to <\/em>time they\u2019d let my brother Mark and me go to these dinner parties, and try and keep up with the adult conversation. Which was <\/em>lots of fun, and they pull out all the stops with the food. It would be wonderful. They were great entertainers in that way. <\/em>And I just remember this particular lunch. It was when they were discussing Eric Von Daniken<\/a>\u2018s \u2018Chariots of the gods\u2019<\/a>, which was <\/em>really charting at that time. And my ears perked up, because, I\u2019d always been a little bit unsatisfied with explanations of who we <\/em>are, and where we\u2019ve come from.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

If I went to a religious explanation such as I might hear at the primary school, I went to, it just seemed a lazy answer. Well God <\/em>made us, and they didn\u2019t seem to be able to explain why we are so obviously an animal, and so similar to the other animals \u2013 if <\/em>we\u2019re this unique special creation by God. But then if I went to the scientific explanation, the only reason we\u2019re at the top of the <\/em>tree, in terms of the food chain is because of our advanced intelligence, and higher consciousness. And, science didn\u2019t seem to <\/em>be able to explain where that came from. Because without that \u2013 I mean all the other animals on planet Earth can live quite <\/em>happily in the wild. Marianne, if you or I were dropped in the wild for three days, three nights we\u2019d be sick \u2013 we\u2019d have passed <\/em><\/span>away, or we\u2019d be hospitalized.<\/span> <\/em><\/p>\n

We don\u2019t seem to be very well adapted to the planet. Unless, we have higher intelligence, and we\u2019ve got tools and equipment and technology. And I couldn\u2019t find that explanation. Eric Von Daniken had pointed this out. He had identified this gap that seemed to be a bit of a taboo. I wasn\u2019t hearing anybody else admitting that there was a problem in us explaining ourselves. So since the age of 11 that had bothered me, and in all my explorations as a believer over 30 years, the questions he had raised had never quite been answered. <\/span><\/em>So when I finally had the time for my retreat, in my shipping crate cabin, all these things washing around, and I just sat down with the Book of Genesis, and a willingness to do some translation work. And, as I did that I realized there\u2019s a whole other story, hidden in plain sight in the text. That speaks of a populated universe and a totally different narrative of human origins to what I\u2019d heard before.<\/span>
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Absolutely. When I \u2013 I wrote a number of things down as I was reading your book, a number of quotes. Quotes that you said that really jumped out at me. A couple that I\u2019ll share now are:<\/p>\n

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\u201cSo when Neo takes the red pill in the matrix, he wakes up to a new world. Everything he thought he knew turns out to have been an illusion. And Neo must now find his feet in a new reality, and a whole new world of possibilities.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

And then you go on to say \u2013 oh, that\u2019s in the second chapter. In the first chapter you said:<\/p>\n

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\u201cOpening my eyes to a plural genesis was like releasing the break on a roller coaster, and I had no way of knowing where it would take me.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

And then when I read your quote in the second chapter on Neo, I thought \u2013 wow this must have just been absolutely paradigm-shifting for you?<\/p>\n

Yes, it has been paradigm-shifting. The paradigm didn\u2019t shift all in one go but there really was a red pill moment for me, and that was to do with this word that gets translated as God, quite a lot in the Bible, and it\u2019s the word Elohim<\/a>. And it\u2019s a curious word, because, it\u2019s a plural form word. And it takes plural verb forms a lot of the time, and then exhibits plural behaviours.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

So that\u2019s all the \u2013 Let us make in the image and likeness of us, and then \u2013 or in a moment when Abraham says that God told him <\/em>to go somewhere. He actually says \u2013 Elohim plural, told me plural, to move, or of the [inaudible]. And, as I started investigating <\/em>that word I realized that sometimes it\u2019s translated as God. Sometimes gods in the plural. Or false gods, or demon, or demons, or <\/em>angels, or even landlords. And well, it is possible for a word to mean all those different things. But how did the translators decide <\/em>when it\u2019s God and when it\u2019s demon? Where\u2019s all that coming from?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And, as I investigated that I realized that right at the beginning of Christian history there were significant church fathers. People <\/em>like Origin Clement of Alexandria<\/a>, Justin Martyr<\/a>, who argued that the Elohim stories were not really God\u2019s stories at all. They weren\u2019t <\/em>talking about God, the father of Jesus Christ at all. They were talking about something else. And. I struggled with this word. I went <\/em>to all the commentaries to see how they dealt with it, and they sort of all avoided it. Right? The more I saw them avoiding it, the <\/em>more I thought this is worth exploring. And so the moment came and I thought alright, I think I\u2019m prepared to accept that Elohim is <\/em>a plural word. It used to be a plural word and that it\u2019s been turned into a god word at a later stage. <\/em>Let\u2019s see what happens to the stories. If I read it \u2013 reread the text with Elohim in the plural. If you look at the etymology, it means <\/em><\/span>the powerful ones. So let\u2019s reread the stories with Elohim translated as the powerful ones, and see what happens?<\/span> <\/em><\/p>\n

Well of course <\/em>the stories change, but they don\u2019t change in a random way. As soon as you make that change the Genesis stories shift and they <\/em>line up in parallel with stories from the Sumerian, Babylonian Arcadian, and Assyrian texts. <\/em>This was not known until the eighteen hundreds, \u2019cause, we didn\u2019t have a translation key on all the cuneiform tablets, that held the <\/em>Mesopotamian stories. But, once we had that translation key, and a historic inscription, 1835 \u2013 discovered by Henry Rawlinson<\/a>. <\/em>Scholars pored over it and they read those tablets. And they thought, wait a minute! That sounds like the story of Adam and Eve! <\/em>Wait a minute, that sounds like the Garden of Eden. That sounds like the fall. That sounds like the limiting of human life. There\u2019s the <\/em>flood. There\u2019s the Tower of Babel. <\/em><\/span>And, it became clear during the eighteen hundreds, that the Genesis stories, and further into the Bible, they are summary forms of the ancient Mesopotamian stories \u2013 Which was a little bit of a controversy at the time. The idea that the Bible might be based on someone else\u2019s book, didn\u2019t go down very well in some quarters.<\/span>
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But even more significant than that, the Mesopotamian version. The original versions of all those familiar stories are not stories about God. They\u2019re stories about our ancestors bumping up against a colonizing force from somewhere else. From the stars. Other species that turn up, and have hands-on involvement in our evolution as a species. And seeing those parallels, that was the red pill moment. I can never go back and read those Elohim stories as god\u2019s stories, because, they are not. They are summaries of the stories of the sky people, and many of the early Christian leaders knew that. And argued for it, and they got voted out and excommunicated. But there it was, right in the roots of Christianity. And that was what I was beginning to unearth.<\/span>
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So it\u2019s a red pill in the sense that I couldn\u2019t go back and read it the old way again. But a whole new world really does open up, because, you realize there are narratives all around the world. Indigenous narratives. You go to the Australian Aboriginal story. You go to Native American story. Go to Greece, India, West Africa, the Caribbean, Philippines, Norse. Go wherever you like. You\u2019ll find indigenous narratives that echo these stories, and sometimes the Meso-American especially, in very surprising detail.<\/span>
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And so, for a long time, I lived in a world where it was the Bible over and against the world. You know, the Bible saying this is what really happened. Forget what you hear anywhere else. And now, I\u2019m in a world where all these narratives line up and they\u2019re repeating each other, and confirming each other. Telling us something very interesting about who we are, where we came from. What our place is in the universe. And therefore, what our potential as a species on planet Earth.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s absolutely, that\u2019s absolutely mind-blowing. For, for people who have \u2013 who \u2013 I\u2019m struggling for the right words, because, this is something that I have always known. This is the knowledge that I have always known from my Star People. So to have you come out and actually verify for me knowledge that I knew. Is actually pretty, pretty awesome. But, for people who have never heard this information before, or perhaps never looked at it before, like this \u2013 this is going to take some digesting for some people.<\/p>\n

Oh, that\u2019s very true. That\u2019s very true. It\u2019s funny though I am amazed at how many people I find myself in communication with, who have come to this conclusion from all different kinds of start points. My start point was from a position of faith and from reading the Bible. Other people will have a totally different start point. They might have an anomalous experience that they\u2019ve been puzzling over. Or they might have been reading some other text, or something totally different has led them on to this territory. And it\u2019s exciting to compare notes, and say well what first clued you that this was going on? And we share our stories.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

But, for those who are from a faith background, I always say look, I may have shocked you. This might sound like heresy, but just <\/em>go back and read the texts again. Try out the exercise that I did. Read the text and see what happens, and you begin to notice the episodes. Genesis 6 is perhaps the best known moment where human beings seem to be encountering a non-human species. Not just the Nephalim<\/a>, look that up. But you\u2019ve also got these passages about the heavenly council, or I would call the <\/em>sky council. <\/em>It comes up in one Kings twenty-two. It comes up in the book of Job, and the picture that\u2019s there, even in the current translation of <\/em>the Bible \u2013 is of a council of different kinds of entities. Who seem all to have a stakeholding in Project Earth.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s quite right.<\/p>\n

. . . and they\u2019re bumping up against each other, with regard to how Project Earth should be managed. And often the <\/em>question that they conflict over, is the progress of humanity. How intelligent should human beings be? How conscious should we <\/em>be? How healthy should we be? How long should we be allowed to live? And often these different entities will pitch human <\/em>populations against each other, to go to war. Well, that whole dynamic \u2013 I wonder if anything has ever changed, because, I <\/em>look at 2020 and it feels a great deal like that. And, I think we\u2019re being given a glimpse into another dimensional way of <\/em>understanding what we\u2019re all experiencing on planet Earth, and why we\u2019re experiencing it.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And, I\u2019ve come to realize from other sources, and from all sorts of first-person reports. That we are surrounded by all kinds of entities, <\/em>with different agendas for humanity. Some seem to like us, love us, be fascinated by us. Others are very indifferent to us \u2013 treat us in<\/em><\/span>
\nthe way we might treat farm animals, and then other presences that really seem quite malevolent. And we seem to be caught in<\/em><\/span>
\nthe crossfire, some of the time \u2013 in the conflicts that that throws up.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And actually brought a really good point about twenty \u2013 about twenty-twenty and what\u2019s happening \u2013 I actually put a podcast, like a \u2013 my thoughts out about what the current situation is when it got really bad here in New Zealand. And I said \u2013 I shared a bit of my knowledge, that what\u2019s happening is like \u2013 sort of like a final battle, if you like. Because the war in heaven has never ended. The war that is talked about in the Bible has never ended. It\u2019s been ongoing this whole time.<\/p>\n

And those that currently control this reality that we live in, who try to keep humanity \u2013 the beings that you\u2019re talking about \u2013 in this state of suppression. In this state of slavery, that we are still in. Their time is rapidly coming to an end and \u2013 and so they are ramping up the fear worldwide. Because people who are in fear are easy to control.<\/p>\n

Absolutely. I agree with everything you just said, Marianne. And, this is one of the reasons I love World Mythology. Why I love <\/em><\/span>ancestral narratives and indigenous stories. Because, if \u2013 and you will know this. If someone says what you just said, on Facebook, or in a public conversation \u2013 oh my goodness, you\u2019re crazy! Oh, you\u2019re a conspiracy theorist are you? And, you can\u2019t have a conversation about it. But, if you go to World Mythology. Go to the ancestral narratives, and say here\u2019s a story. We\u2019re caught in the crossfires of this cosmic struggle. There are hidden powers, manipulating human society. They feed off \u2013 some of them feed off low vibration, anger, anxiety, and all that. And there is a conflict over how long-lived, how healthy, how intelligent, conscious we should be.<\/span> <\/em><\/p>\n

And you can point to it in the stories. And you can read the stories, and the stories will resonate. And if you then say I\u2019ll wonder if anything is ever really changed? I wonder if that\u2019s the truth of what\u2019s going on? It\u2019s easier for people to join the dots when they\u2019ve come out of twenty-twenty, with an end to the ancient stories. And they begin to feel the truth of it and recognize the patterns. Then to say I wonder if this tells us about twenty-twenty? It\u2019s easy for people to join the dots. And so that\u2019s why I spend so much of my time in Escaping from Eden, talking about world mythologies, ancient narratives. Because they are there to explain to us the world in which we live.<\/span>
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Absolutely. Excellent. Can we go back to \u2013 Speaking of ancient mythologies, I really love the way that \u2013 as you go through your \u2013 and I\u2019m sorry for, for sidetracking before. As you go through your narrative, of the scriptures, you talk about how the snake was introduced. Well, who is the snake? And what is the snake there for? And, and then you talk further on, let me see. . . OK, then you \u2013 You talk about how \u2013 So you talk about Adam and Eve and you talk about the Garden of Eden. Now, would you like to explain to my listeners your perception of what the Garden of Eden was actually?<\/p>\n

Yes, yes. I picked the title Escaping from Eden, as a bit of a tease. Because, you read those words, and you think why <\/em>would anyone want to escape from Eden? Eden was a paradise, wasn\u2019t it? Well even in the current translation of the Bible \u2013 and <\/em>there\u2019s a broad scholarly consensus, that the current version came into shape in the 6th century BCE. And, that\u2019s when the stories <\/em>were harmonized and monothized, and these other entities were sort of written out of the picture. But, even if you read the <\/em>current translation, there are some little clues.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

So for instance, when we\u2019re introduced to Eden we are told that it\u2019s conveniently close to some key mineral deposits. Well, why on <\/em>earth are we being told that if Eden is this beautiful garden where the human beings can live naked and innocent, and just eat <\/em>all the food that\u2019s there and live this idyllic life? Who needs minerals? Not the human beings. And then, there\u2019s this little verse <\/em>saying and then the powerful ones put the human to work. <\/em>And, when you read it in parallel with the Mesopotamian stories, you realize that has a bit of an ominous tone to it. And, the <\/em>suggestion of many who have studied the Mesopotamian stories, is that the work was not a bit of light gardening. It was mining, <\/em>mining for key mineral deposits. Now, in Southern Africa, the remains of prehistoric gold mines have been found that could be as <\/em>old as two hundred thousand years. Not a lot of research has been done on it, on those. But one has to ask well who was <\/em>around two hundred thousand years ago to be mining in southern Africa? Well, contemporary science says that our ancestors <\/em>were around two hundred thousand years ago. And, that people have exactly the same design and build as us. But, evidently <\/em>less intelligent. Not intelligent enough to farm, but intelligent enough to work in someone else\u2019s mine.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And, you read it alongside the Meso-American story and you\u2019ve got in the Mayan tradition, the Popol Vuh<\/a>. It says there\u2019s a <\/em>moment when the visiting entities, say to each other; \u201cLet us make avatars for ourselves to bring us our food and do the work.\u201d <\/em>And so that stated very, very openly what was going on. Eden is an enclosed area. It\u2019s a safe zone, where our ancestors were engineered \u2013 to use the modern language for it. Engineered in stages. It\u2019s there in Genesis. it\u2019s there in the Popol Vuh. We were engineered in two or three stages. Upgrading us, upgrading us, upgrading us! And then the last step is a downgrade. <\/em>Now, this downgrade is reported in the Greek legends, in the Meso-American. And, it\u2019s there in Genesis as well. It\u2019s there in Genesis 6, in Genesis 11. Where we are brought back down to a level, where we can be more easily managed. And, that\u2019s the story. And, there is a conflict that you see in Genesis three between two factions. How intelligent should the humans be?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

One character in the translation we\u2019ve got now, it\u2019s the God character who wants to keep the humans so unintelligent they don\u2019t even know they\u2019re naked! And then the snake character says no, they should be more conscious, more intelligent. They should be a fully-fledged species able to enjoy life. And he affects the upgrade. In our version, it\u2019s a little bit odd that God is against human progress and the snake wants it. But once you re-translate Elohim, you realize what we\u2019ve actually got is two factions among the powerful ones, in a conflict over human intelligence. And this character the snake in Genesis, Enki in Sumerian stories, breaks rank and effects an upgrade. But then, there\u2019s all this conflict in the sky council over what\u2019s happened.<\/span>
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Huge conflict.<\/p>\n

So, that\u2019s what Eden is. Eden is the place where we were engineered, and then ultimately we get thrown out of that area. That\u2019s the area where the powerful ones reside, and we have to go out and fend for ourselves in the big wide world. And so the story begins.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s really \u2013 That is quite powerful knowledge that is. And its knowledge that they\u2019ve wanted to be suppressed for so, so long. I have always said to people, \u2019cause, I\u2019ve always spoken my truth about my knowledge, and I\u2019ve always said to people humans are a created species. They were created as slaves and that\u2019s always been my knowing.<\/p>\n

Yes, that\u2019s right. I think that\u2019s absolutely right. And I explored in \u2018Escaping from Eden\u2019, what, what does that mean that we <\/em>were downgraded or programmed to be slaves? If you ask the question what do slave settings look like? It\u2019s not just about being <\/em>less intelligent; it\u2019s about having a fear button that could be pressed. Because, if we have a fear button that can be pressed <\/em>we can be managed. We can be manipulated. We can have\u2026. I mean the fear of poverty keeps so many of us enslaved to <\/em>exploitative patterns of employment. So many people would relate to that right away. Now if I wasn\u2019t afraid of losing my house <\/em>there\u2019s no way I\u2019d be doing this job, would be the thought of so many people in Western civilization. So, the fear setting makes us <\/em>slaves in all kinds of ways. It makes us very prone to tyrannical or autocratic governments. And I would suggest you\u2019re seeing a <\/em>little bit of that in twenty-twenty!<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s another aspect that really excites me about this though, because, if for instance, you read the Mayan account that talks <\/em>about downgrading. So that we can be managed. What that story says this is in the Popol Vuh, that our ancestors were <\/em>upgraded to a point where they were able to do a little bit more than we can. Where they could see things beyond their <\/em>immediate environment. They could remote view. They had things like precognition. They had better telepathy, because, of all <\/em>that, they were able to self heal better than we can. And then, all that gets downgraded.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Well, the traditions that have curated these stories of our origins, have also curated mystical and shamanic practices. All aimed, <\/em>at switching those abilities back on. And the thing that made me rediscover that, because, I\u2019ve always been interested in <\/em>mysticism, but I rediscovered that, and that aspect, by probing a topic called Acquired Savant Syndrome<\/a>. <\/em>Now, this has nothing to do with mythologies or ancestral narrative. This is contemporary science. An acquired savant syndrome <\/em>is what happens when a person sustains a brain injury, or has a central nervous system event, like a stroke, or a blow to the head.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And when they emerge from the injury they have extended abilities. They have enhanced cognitive abilities. So, just down the <\/em>road from me, in Victoria, Ben McMahon is in a car crash. He was in an induced coma for a week, and when he emerged from <\/em>that he emerged speaking Mandarin and far better than he\u2019d ever been able to speak it before. There was a guy who was <\/em>struck by lightning, who all of a sudden had musical abilities he never had before. Now writes music, and performs concerts. There was a lady who is an artist, who as her brain was suffering from dementia, all her artistic abilities were lifting, and lifting, and lifting.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And there was a fascinating scientific blind study done on that, to confirm that, that was what was happening. And when that was studied, as it is by peer-reviewed scientists all around the world, the leader of the project was Dr Drego. And then I think it was Darryl Treffert<\/a>? Or, there are some top scholars studying it. The language they use is fascinating. In that case of the artist, they said it appears to be a dis-inhibition of the brain\u2019s visual systems.<\/span>
\n<\/em><\/p>\n

Interesting!<\/p>\n

Dis-inhibition? Well, a layperson hears that and says what are inhibitors doing in our brains that by accident they can be <\/em>switched off and suddenly we\u2019re cleverer? <\/em>That\u2019s the pattern of acquired savant syndrome. It\u2019s absolutely baffling to our scientists. They can see it happening. They can\u2019t <\/em>explain it. They\u2019re very honest in asking the questions. How is it that our brains have advanced cognitive abilities in the off <\/em>position? They ask, is it possible to switch them on without a brain injury? And our shamanic traditions, mystical traditions, say yes it <\/em>is possible. Here are some methods. And so, you\u2019ve got modalities of control conscious breathing. Some cultures have smoke <\/em>and smoking ceremonies. Some have psychoactive tea ceremonies. They\u2019re all aimed at the same thing. Switching those <\/em>inhibitors off, to heighten our consciousness. So that once again experiences like remote viewing, precognition telepathy, self-healing<\/em>, can be part of the human experience.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And when you tell people about those practices or acquired savant syndrome, you know most people, with a little bit of time to <\/em>process, will say you know it\u2019s funny \u2013 almost everyone has a story they can share. A glimpse of precognition. Something they <\/em>knew was going to happen. They knew, who was about to call on the phone. They knew something had just happened, to a <\/em>particular loved one. Telepathy. People have extraordinary connections, where you know what another person is thinking, and <\/em>you might not even be in the same room or in the same town. Everyone has experienced a glimpse of something that leaves <\/em>them thinking, I wonder if I could switch that on at will? I wonder if I could develop that? And that\u2019s really what the shamanic and <\/em>mystical traditions are all about.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Right. And that\u2019s one of the reasons why they\u2019ve been so persecuted and pooh-poohed. and made illegal.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s quite right. So obviously, the purges against witchcraft in medieval Europe would be one example of that. It was very hypocritical I should say, because, at that time and if you go to the court of Queen Elizabeth the first. She was actually hiring people that could do remote viewing, and that was part of the job of MI5, which, which she set up. She set up the beginnings of MI5. Because, they couldn\u2019t afford to have boots on the field, in countries all around the world. They desperately wanted to develop remote viewing technology. People laugh when they read about \u2013 if they read the book \u2018Men Who Stare at Goats\u2019.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

They\u2019re invited to laugh at American defence trying to nurture these things. But actually, all governments around the world have been trying to nurture that for 500 years. That\u2019s how seriously they take it. But, they\u2019ll invest serious money in it. And, I do think that in some of the archived works, you think about the suppressed Gnostic Gospels and some of the other suppressed texts through the generations. I think they were suppressed because there was a suspicion all these things are possible, and the powers that be didn\u2019t want a general population that was too hard to manage. I mean it goes back to that.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Exactly!<\/p>\n

Too confident it could see through too many things. So, that story of the genetic engineers and the Popol Vuh downgrading us, so we can be managed. That is a perpetually relevant story, explaining to us what\u2019s going on.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Absolutely!<\/p>\n

But I am encouraged to think that the suppressed tradition is the shamanic and mystical traditions. Esoteric traditions <\/em>have a way of surviving. And that knowledge has a way of remaining in the folklore, or in esoteric societies, passed on from one <\/em>generation to the next. So that the potential is there in every generation to wake up. And for us to live a more conscious, more <\/em>empowered life.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s absolutely correct. That is just \u2013 you just have to know. You just have to have the keys, to be able to see. And your book really provides people with keys, that are going to be so important. And, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re aware of this Paul? But, just in the past couple of days, the New York Times released an article saying that the US has ships, that are not of this world?<\/p>\n

Yes! There\u2019ve been some really interesting disclosures this year, and last year. And, it represents a huge shift in policy. <\/em>Because, in 1947 following the Roswell crash \u2013 and, there\u2019ve been a couple of other incidents. President Truman signed the <\/em>National Security Act. Which classified all official UFO research. And so, from that moment on there was no public <\/em><\/span>acknowledgement of UFOs or E.T. encounters. The policy was silence and debunking. . .<\/span>
\n<\/em><\/p>\n

And ridicule.<\/p>\n

Until 2019 when the US Navy was allowed to disclose, that it had been engaging with UFOs. OR UAPs, as we call them today. And naval officials were allowed to talk to the press and make this acknowledgement. Now I don\u2019t know why that wasn\u2019t bigger news? Because it was a huge shift in policy after 72 years.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Then in the same year, we had Luis Elizondo<\/a> going public, and saying the Pentagon has had a unit, whose job is to investigate materials retrieved, from what may be UFO crashes. And that department has existed all this time. Well, that was a huge admission that there are real materials and that there\u2019s been a cover-up! But now we\u2019re talking about it! This is huge! The Pentagon! for goodness sake. And now this year, 2020, we\u2019ve got Eric Davis<\/a>, an astrophysicist, who has briefed the American Department of Defense, as recently as March 2020. Regarding materials retrieved from \u2013 what was the phrase? Off World vehicles.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Off-world vehicles. Yes, correct. . .<\/p>\n

Which is a very funny phrase, off-world vehicles. He means UFOs! He means E.T craft! And, there it is! He\u2019s not been <\/em>debunked. The government has not distanced itself from those remarks. There\u2019s a drip, drip, drip of disclosure going on. To let us <\/em>know that we\u2019re not alone in the universe. And, that some of the entities who share this space with us, are technological species <\/em>just like ourselves. And, have technology that might be helpful to us.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

I was clued that this was going on by Edgar Dean Mitchell<\/a>, the sixth man to walk on the moon. And I think if anyone goes on <\/em>YouTube and watches everything they can find by Ed Mitchell, they\u2019ll quickly realize that a man of greater integrity and honesty <\/em>you could scarcely wish to find. And he was very emphatic, in calling on the American government to declassify what was going <\/em>on. To acknowledge the materials and the technology that we have, that could benefit the whole of humanity. That could end <\/em>our slavery to the oil corporations, and give us free energy. He was motivated by that. What it could mean for humanity.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

He was also motivated by honouring families who\u2019d been silenced, during the 72-year period of silence, and debunking. And threatened, by the US military with death threats down the generations of their families, should they ever talk about what they saw. And, when I heard him speaking about that, and realizing, here is a man who is bound by all sorts of layers of official secrets. As is everyone, involved with the Apollo Mercury missions. If he can say that, if that\u2019s what he is allowed to say, it makes it very significant. What is he not allowed to say? I must say that I\u2019m gonna take it seriously. And he says anyone who\u2019s sceptical about our being in a populated universe. Anyone who\u2019s sceptical about the UFO phenomenon, study the lore, he says. L O R E, surrounding crash retrievals.<\/span> <\/em><\/p>\n

And that is what Eric Davis and Luis Elizandro are talking about publicly now, in 2019 and 2020. And I\u2019d say the same if you\u2019re if you\u2019re not sure. If you\u2019re sceptical, just go down that rabbit hole. Just to follow up on information about retrieved materials from off-world <\/em>vehicles, and that might be your red pill.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Very, very cool. Very cool. And, of course, I find the timing of their release of this information, typical. They release it while people are preoccupied with the covid situation. So, people aren\u2019t going to pay so much attention to it. So actually, when they start introducing Star People, they\u2019re going to say \u2013 but we told you that these were real back in\u2026. That\u2019s exactly what they\u2019re going to do!<\/p>\n

Exactly. And I had that feeling about the Pontifical Academy of Sciences back in 2009. They\u2019re saying this, so that <\/em>when a disclosure\u2019s made by another authority. Or, something obvious happens. They can say, oh don\u2019t you remember we <\/em>talked about this? There\u2019s no issue here. I think you\u2019re right. It\u2019s the same. But, it\u2019s funny they do it now. Because, there are a lot of <\/em>people locked down at home with nothing to do, other than Google or go on YouTube. So, it\u2019s a perfect time for a lot of <\/em>people to take note, and just follow up on what they\u2019re hearing from the Pentagon, Luis Elizondo, Eric Davis. Go and search up <\/em>on Ed Mitchell. And, everyone\u2019s desperate for entertainment. Well, take some time over that, and open up your world.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Yeah. Exactly! And I was told \u2013 the release of the slow disclosure, that they\u2019ve been releasing over, over the past years, is not by chance. I was told by my star people back in 1985. That the world governments were told, that they had to release this knowledge to humanity, or it would be taken out of their hands.<\/p>\n

Well yes, I can well believe that. I think. That you know there are groups who are very passionate as Ed Mitchell was in <\/em>petitioning for disclosure and declassification. They\u2019re not happy with this policy of silence over the E.T. presence around planet <\/em>Earth. But, I think that some of the struggle over that is not just a political struggle. A political struggle, obviously, is what happens <\/em>if we tell people? Not just in terms of would it panic people? But, how would they feel about their governments, knowing that <\/em>they have been \u2013 had things hidden from them? Those are so significant, and that they\u2019ve been lied to in such a significant way? <\/em>I think that\u2019s the political aspect, the uncertainty of it. But I think there\u2019s a conflict in that sky council, over this question as well.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

The conflict is that the American government made an agreement with beings, that are not \u2013 the beings, who have our best interests at heart. And so, they are sort of caught between a rock and a hard place at this point in time.<\/p>\n

Yes! that that rings true. I\u2019m a great fan of Star Trek. And Star Trek, in the Star Trek universe, you\u2019ve got the United Federation <\/em>of Planets. Which has created a league among most of the civilizations out there in the universe, and then every so often they\u2019ll <\/em>come across a rogue that civilization and have some adventures.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

But, the United Federation of Planets is guided by something called the Prime Directive. And the prime directive says, that if <\/em>you turn up to a planet where the population is pre-spacefaring, you cannot announce your presence and let them know what\u2019s <\/em><\/span>going on. You just gotta let them develop. Well, I do think that there are beings, races, species in the universe who. . .<\/span>
\n<\/em><\/p>\n

Oh no, you froze!<\/p>\n

And then you\u2019ve got others who just turn up and say oh this is a useful planet. I think we can get some good stuff out of this <\/em>planet, or the species. And there\u2019s the conflict, and can they police each other? And I think, my sense is there\u2019s a bit of a <\/em>breaking down of the balance of power in that equation. And I think that the drip, drip of disclosure is because, at some point, <\/em>the cat is going to be out of the bag. And in some way governments have to be ahead of that game.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

But, I\u2019m aware that we\u2019re not the only players. We\u2019re not the only ones who make the call here. That there\u2019s this other <\/em>community, that Mitchell spoke about this, a community of spacefaring civilizations was the language he used. And there is a bit <\/em>of a tussle going on, over the question of disclosure. That\u2019s my impression.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

The \u2013 It\u2019s more about freeing humanity from the chains that currently bind them.<\/p>\n

Amen to that!<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s what it\u2019s about. That\u2019s my understanding. And, the team that I have worked with, since time immemorial, would be the ones that would be regarded as the snake in the garden.<\/p>\n

Yes, it\u2019s really \u2013 it\u2019s funny. This really confuses people, because, of the way, the edit has gone in Genesis. That story in Genesis three is told of God vs. the snake. And the snake is equated with the devil. So this really confuses people who begin in the book of Genesis. But, if you begin in the Sumerian story, the upgrader is not the devil. The upgrader is not the enemy of humankind. The character Enki is actually more affectionately related to the human race. And, and wants something better for us.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And, bit by bit I\u2019ve had to realize that, that snake narratives around the world are not necessarily demonic narratives or devil narratives. And that, that symbolism is very often used for a faction and a presence that is about helping people be more conscious, be more aware, take our place in the community of species that we share the universe with.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Right. And, actually going back \u2013 we\u2019ve kind of gone all over the place, but, going back to your book and to the legends, I was particularly impressed with the Zulu.<\/p>\n

Oh, I love the Zulu legend of Unkulunkulu<\/a>! <\/em>When I started looking at the question of human origins with regard to contemporary science, I was blown away to discover how <\/em>many eminent figures in DNA research hold to the view that life on Earth, did not originate on Earth. That it came from somewhere <\/em>else. And they proposed this theory called panspermia<\/a>. And the idea of panspermia is that the genetic coding for sentient <\/em>life has been disseminated throughout the cosmos.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And that, when it lands on a hospitable planet \u2013 it basically means a planet with water. It will generate forms of life, similar to what<\/em><\/span>
\nwe\u2019re familiar with on planet Earth. So you have people like Maxima Kozloff<\/a> and Vladimir Shcherbak<\/a> who are at the cutting edge<\/em><\/span>
\nof DNA research in search of the human genome. <\/em>You\u2019ve got people like Carl Sagan<\/a> back in the 1960s, arguing for this. Francis Crick<\/a> the co-discoverer, of the double helix of <\/em>DNA, arguing for this. This theory of panspermia, life being sent through the cosmos, is a nuts and bolts version of what Plato <\/a><\/em>wrote about two thousand five hundred years ago.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

The Zulu legend has a wonderfully cinematic version of that, and their explanation is that life on Earth arrived from outer space.<\/em><\/span>
\nAnd they have this story that talks about these seed pods landing on planet Earth, with all different forms of life. Plantlife, life for<\/em><\/span>
\nthe waters, the oceans, and then life for the land. And then, the first human, who is Unkulunkulu.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And, it\u2019s such a beautiful graphic description of these seed pods. With these life forms maturing, and then the seed pods pop <\/em>open. And out they come, and they found their niches on planet Earth. Well, when I first read that, first of all, I thought, that\u2019s a <\/em>really interesting story, for the ancient Zulu people to have. Why would you think that life on earth has come from outer space? <\/em>What on earth would you see, looking around the wildlife of Africa, to suggest that to you? It\u2019s not something that would <\/em>naturally occur to the imagination. Also, when I read it I thought I\u2019ve seen this in so many movies. Stasis pods. Arks in space.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Hmm, the Matrix even.<\/p>\n

. . . cryogenic freezing, taking forms of life into other parts of the universe, so they can seed another planet.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Why do we keep telling that story? Why is it in so many movies? Why is it in so many cultures? Why is it in the Zulu culture? And, I<\/em><\/span>
\nbelieve that it\u2019s a memory, that has survived. That\u2019s the story that\u2019s told from generation to generation, even if it never becomes the official narrative. Never gets into our textbooks. Never acknowledged by the government, as this is what happened. It\u2019s part of the human story that has survived, and it\u2019s a way of telling the truth of who we are.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

When I read that I thought well, you know and here are these Zulu people these people away from so-called civilization. They\u2019ve retained this knowledge and it\u2019s pretty amazing. And then, I thought of also when I was reading about the pods I thought of how they actually formed humans. What humans grew in initially.<\/p>\n

Yes. Yes, that\u2019s right. When you go back to these ancient mythologies with the question in your mind were we genetically <\/em>engineered? You start realizing that if some ancient ancestor had to describe what they saw in a lab, they would reach for the <\/em>kind of metaphors that you hear in narratives from culture to culture. So whether you\u2019re looking at a stasis pod that\u2019s described as a <\/em>seed pollen. Or, whether you\u2019re talking about human life being engineered from some kind of clay. Or, whether you\u2019re talking <\/em>about a fusion of blood of the sky people with the bodies of the earth people, it begins to make sense.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And you realize that we\u2019ve got descriptions of genetic engineering in very earthy terms, being given to us. And it makes sense in<\/em><\/span>
\na way that is quite different, but more coherent than perhaps some of our older ways of reading these stories, where we\u2019ve read<\/em><\/span>
\nit as a pure metaphor or pure poetry. <\/em>Or, tried to read them as moral stories. But really, you try and turn them into moral stories, the morality that emerges from them is <\/em>pretty odd. I\u2019ve come to the view that ancient ancestral narratives or world mythologies are vehicles of memory. And so, when I <\/em>come to these stories that\u2019s the question I come with. I don\u2019t read it as \u2013 in a fundamentalist way where every detail that\u2019s exactly <\/em>how it was. That\u2019s exactly what happened. And I certainly don\u2019t read it as a moral fable. I asked the question what \u2013 why has this <\/em>been written? What memory is this carrying?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s a really good question. That\u2019s a really good way of looking at it. And it also explains, if \u2013 looking at it the old testament, in the genesis texts as a historical document, rather than a biblical document. How the Nephalim were able to be developed, because, you couldn\u2019t have a human woman giving birth to a giant like that. It\u2019s just not possible. It\u2019s just not physically possible.<\/p>\n

Yes. Now that\u2019s the best-known episode in the Bible in terms of the story of human \/ET hybridization. When you try and talk <\/em>about that in the modern world. It\u2019s, it\u2019s too far out there. It just sounds too fantastical for people to want to do business with. <\/em>And yet, people who read the Bible know a story of human\/ET hybridization. And, it is the one in Genesis 6. The one where the <\/em>Bene-Elohim<\/a>, the ones like the powerful ones, take human girls, and hybridized with them, and produced the Nephilim<\/a>. And, what\u2019s <\/em>interesting is these other entities are compatible with us sufficiently that we can interbreed or hybridize, but they\u2019re different <\/em>enough that the offspring are very different. They are what the Greeks called the Titans,<\/a> or the Bible calls the Nephilim.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And you get to historians around the year dot. People like the Jewish historian Josephus<\/a>, and they talk about that story. And, he draws a parallel with the Greek stories. And then he says, this is the explanation of why there are giants in our day. It was very concrete and very real. When Josephus was writing, it hadn\u2019t been pushed into the zone of myth and fairy tale.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Right. Right. And there are stories, whispers that there have been bones of giants found. And apparently, the Smithsonian was supposed to have had some. But, they were destroyed or removed. Or, something like that?<\/p>\n

Well, I think some of the most interesting finds are often archived, is the polite word.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Yes.\u00a0 Very polite.<\/p>\n

But the Giants is fascinating, because, there were lots of finds in the eighteen hundred\u2019s; particularly in America, of giant humanoid skeletons. And those finds continue to this day. But, they were openly reported in the newspapers when they discovered them. Some of them were very, very odd, that they did not fit with the simple linear story of human evolution. We couldn\u2019t fit them on the map.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a fascinating moment when President Abraham Lincoln acknowledges the giant people who used to live on these lands. I can\u2019t remember where he was speaking. I think it was near Niagara when he was making this speech. So at that time, it was uncontroversial to say there were giants in these lands. We don\u2019t really know anything about them. They\u2019ve all been archived somewhere. Yes, very possibly at the Smithsonian. And yet today in the twenty-first-century people are embarrassed to acknowledge that were these finds, and that we can\u2019t fit them on the map of humanity.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m hoping that will change, because, in the last decade so many new humanoid species have been dug up. I\u2019m thinking of the Denisovens<\/a>. So one example. Or is it Homo Floresiensis<\/a>? I can never get that name right, the hobbits of Indonesia. I think there is <\/em>more acknowledgement that there was a great diversity of human or human-like beings on the planet in the ancient past. And <\/em>perhaps, that allows us to say, and yes some of them were very very big.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Mm-hmm. And also, speaking a diversity of species there, those ones that were found in Peru, was it? With that elongated skulls?<\/p>\n

The Paracas skulls<\/a>?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s the one!<\/p>\n

Yes! Absolutely fascinating! Now, they have been DNA tested. And, we\u2019re told that, that they are human. But they are human of a form we\u2019re not familiar with. That skull shape, we\u2019re not familiar with. They have, is it two parietal plates instead of three? So it\u2019s a differently structured skull to ours. The brain capacity is larger than ours.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

At first, there was conversation, was this head binding that it created these head shapes. And then they worked out, no it couldn\u2019t be that, because, of the parietal plates. Because of the volume of the brain. All we can say is, we don\u2019t know who they are? But then, there\u2019s an interesting ps to that. That skull shape raises questions about human history. Why are there cultures that practised skull binding to try and get their kids heads into that shape?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Correct!<\/p>\n

Who were they, that we were trying to look like them? And then, you look at depictions of ancient rulers of ancient Egypt, <\/em>for example. And you see these funny head shapes, and then you\u2019ll see headgear that is designed either to hide the head <\/em>shape or to make it look like you\u2019ve got that head shape. <\/em>And then, that regal dress \u2013 a bit like the pope\u2019s mitre, seems to repeat in cultures around the world. So that\u2019s a great mystery. <\/em>Why is a long skull, the skull of a ruler? Why do we want to look like them? And, who were they? Because we don\u2019t see them <\/em>wandering around today.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

You know, when people look at the stories of the sky people in the Mesopotamian stories. The Annunaki, as they\u2019re known. <\/em>Some might say if that\u2019s a real story. If there really were Elohim, or powerful ones wandering around governing human society in <\/em>the past, why haven\u2019t we dug up any remains? Well, the question is how would you know if you\u2019ve dug one up? How different do <\/em>they have to look? And, what would you expect to find in the DNA, if we DNA tested them?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m intrigued by this, because, we did have the opportunity to test the Summarian\u2019s story in two-thousand and three when it appears we discovered <\/em>the tomb of King Gilgamesh. Who according to this Summarian story, was a hybrid being. More, more even than we are. He was<\/em><\/span>
\na hybrid of the sky people, and the humans. He is the subject of the most ancient story that we have. We have it in written form,<\/em> from the cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

It seems his tomb was discovered by Joerg Fassbender<\/a> in 2003. As soon as the allied forces were in Iraq, a unit went with him so <\/em>that he could uncover this site, and then, everything went silent. Haven\u2019t investigated any further. Apparently, in the 17 years <\/em>since. The obvious thing to do is, is there anything there that we can DNA test? Now my guess is, if it\u2019s gone silent they tested <\/em>and they didn\u2019t want to tell us what they found.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Correct<\/p>\n

I think in any other scenario they\u2019d be talking about it. That\u2019s the logic of it. So I do think there may be material evidence, not only of a very diverse human population but of colonizers who were not human. I suspect that there are authorities that have that data but who are not sharing it.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

I absolutely agree with that. Wow. So this has been a really ongoing journey for you. So you, you, you did all this research. You wrote your fantastic book, \u2018Escape from Eden\u2019. Escaping from Eden? Sorry, Escaping from Eden.<\/p>\n

Escaping from Eden.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And it led you down this path, and it\u2019s really opened \u2013 opened different doors for you, that possibly you may not have gone down before? How has it affected your personal belief in a higher being?<\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, that is one of the things it\u2019s taken me a while to process. The first thing it does is it removes a really ugly aspect of Judaism and Christianity. Which is, of a violent and immoral God. Every preacher knows there\u2019s this problem. If you believe in a God of love. If you believe that Jesus shows us what God is like, you immediately have a problem with the Hebrew Scriptures. The Old Testament, reports God doing awful, violent, genocidal things. Often, he is deeply unforgiving and unpredictable, and it doesn\u2019t make sense.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Once you pluralize Elohim, you realize we\u2019re blaming God for things that alien colonizers were doing. It wasn\u2019t God doing the things at all. So my first response was a sigh of relief, oh my goodness, God is better than I thought he was. And then I started rediscovering Jesus in a fresh way. Oh, Jesus is better than I thought he was, because, this whole narrative of control worship and obedience, heaven and hell, it\u2019s, it\u2019s a false framework. And, it comes from the sixth century BCE when those scriptures were all drafted. In a time of us vs. them. Where the people of Israel were imprisoned by the Babylonians. And, they took out everything from their tradition, that they had in common with the Babylonians. And the Babylonians would be eternally punished, and the people of Israel would be eternally vindicated.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s the framework that set up the US and THEM, heaven and hell, obedience versus sin. All those binaries, that turn religion into quite an unpleasant, controlling thing. So I was, began to be relieved of that. And then I had to say well what is what\u2019s the real story here? I went back to those church fathers, who said the Elohim stories are not proper God stories. And I saw where they were coming from. They were \u2013 if you read between the lines, essentially suggesting. Let\u2019s not have an Old Testament, or the Hebrew Scriptures and the Apostolic writings. It should be an Old Testament of Plato. Plato gives us a really good understanding of what\u2019s going on. He illuminates those old stories, and he\u2019s a wonderful preparation for what Jesus was on about.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And so I thought, gee, I need to read up on Plato. These, these guys, were clearly onto something. What was it? So I read up on Plato. His book Fido. His book Timaeus and Critias<\/a>. And I discovered, to my very surprise. Here\u2019s this guy, who any philosopher would acknowledge Plato, as the foundation of Western thought. No one could deny his importance and the brilliance of his work. And yet, there are aspects of it they quietly sideline. It\u2019s a little bit embarrassing, because, he talks about an ET intervention in our evolution as a species.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Other entities he called Children of God, turning up somewhere else and upgrading our ancestors, for greater consciousness, greater intelligence. He also speaks about another entity, the craftsman. Who is responsible for forming the world, the cosmos, the solar system that we\u2019re familiar with. And these are all entities separate to God. When he gets to God. His language is really, really interesting. And, it begins to sound like quantum. When he talks about God he\u2019s talking about the source of all things. And for him, the source of all things was a unified field of love and consciousness. Well, quantum is beginning to tell us that consciousness is the prime organizing principle of the universe. We used to think it was time. Then we thought it was light. Quantum is saying no, it\u2019s consciousness.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Plato said the same thing two thousand, five hundred years ago. And this unified field of love, consciousness, intelligence, harmony exploded or fractionalized into the material universe. He argues beautifully, from things we all observe, on the basis of logic. He says the material universe came into being in order for that primordial consciousness, to experience itself and express itself.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And so, the great question that\u2019s upon the whole universe is, can love-consciousness, harmony, intelligence, exist in a universe like
\nthis? Can we do love, consciousness as a society of individual beings, exercising free choice? The picture he gives of the human life cycle is that we begin as consciousness. An aspect of the divine consciousness, the source consciousness. Then we individuate and incarnate as human beings. And we wrestle with these questions on planet Earth. And then, we pass away and we return to that unified consciousness.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s how Plato describes the human journey. I read that, and I thought, that sounds familiar. That sounds like a lot of eastern thought. If I go to Buddhism or Hinduism. That sounds familiar. But then, if I go to John\u2019s Gospel it\u2019s there too. Because that\u2019s how the life story of Jesus is described in the gospel. In the beginning, was the word. And the word was with God, and the Word was God. And then the word became flesh and dwelt among us. And then at the end of the Gospel Jesus is praying to the source who he calls father, and he says and now I\u2019m returning to you. Back to the glory, we enjoyed, before the foundation of the world. Well what if Jesus there, is the model for all of us?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

It tells me that we are intimately connected with God. We are all emanations of God. We\u2019re all expressions of that source consciousness. Our connection could not be closer than it is. And, you begin to realize that the story of us being separated from God and needing religion to fix it, is really false.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That spirituality is really about discovering the connection that we have. Every single human being on the planet. It\u2019s not about being spiritual or religious. Every human being is an expression of this source consciousness. And the more we discovered that the more conscious we can be. Then the more wonderful and exciting, alive and more confident to life, we can live while we\u2019re on planet Earth.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

So that\u2019s how my view has shifted. I see it as very rooted in the Jesus story, but it\u2019s a far more open, exciting. God is closer than I\u2019d ever imagined and closer to everyone else. And it takes away all the anxiety and pressure, and control that often comes with a more religious viewpoint.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s really awesome. That\u2019s really awesome that you\u2019ve come to that understanding. And, the beings that I work with, that is their goal, actually. That humanity will come to that understanding for themselves. So that they can break off the controls, and the fear that\u2019s been bred into them.<\/p>\n

Yes, absolutely. And see this is wonderful, because, the conversation we\u2019re now having \u2013 you\u2019ve come to this awareness through tuning into other consciousness. Through hearing from other entities, and through your experiences. This has shaped your worldview. I\u2019ve come to this through reading texts. Through reading Genesis, and yet we\u2019ve arrived at the same realization.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

The same.<\/p>\n

And now, we can compare notes. So I love this kind of conversation.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s awesome, isn\u2019t it? And it\u2019s like I always say to members of my group, and to people \u2013 there are many ways to climb the mountain.<\/p>\n

Absolutely. That\u2019s absolutely right.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And so it was very, very exciting for me to be able to talk to you about your learning, and your discovery. And how this has altered your way of thinking, and your way of looking at things. And of course, I can imagine that this hasn\u2019t endeared you to a lot of more traditional \u2013 um what\u2019s the correct word? Traditional religious viewpoints \u2013 people who have traditional religious viewpoints.<\/p>\n

Well it\u2019s funny I was expect \u2013 expecting more of a backlash on Escaping from Eden. And sure enough, if you go onto my channel on YouTube, the Paul Wallis channel. If you go into the fifth kind TV on YouTube you will hear comments from people who were coming from a conservative, or a fundamentalist religious background. And they will come in and they\u2019ll say all this is rubbish. You don\u2019t know anything. Go and read your Bible. This is heresy. This is, this is satanic delusion, and all this really strong language.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

But you know? About maybe even ninety per cent of the time, when I go back and say Hi thanks for your comment. The reason I\u2019m saying this is this, this, and this. Ninety per cent of the time the person will come back and say, Oh I see what you\u2019re saying. Actually, I always wondered about that? And then we get into a conversation. It\u2019s only a very small proportion, who actually can\u2019t have a conversation about this.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

There will be many others of course who are watching the Paul Wallis channel, or the 5th kind\u00a0 TV, who might find it very <\/em>challenging. But, I\u2019ve been really encouraged by the number of believers, of different religions. And clergy, and pastors, and <\/em>academic theologians who have engaged really, really positively \u2013 and said, thank you for tackling this. And, many have said, I\u2019m <\/em>so relieved to hear this being spoken about in this way because I\u2019ve long struggled with this or I\u2019ve long suspected this. Or, had <\/em>this belief and I couldn\u2019t talk about it in my church. Or, I\u2019ve just retired from the ministry and I\u2019ve now got a bit more time to think <\/em>about these things, and I think you\u2019re onto something. There\u2019s been far more positive feedback of that kind.<\/span><\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And what I love to hear, is from people who said I\u2019ve been so conflicted over this. I couldn\u2019t work out how my belief in God tied <\/em>in with these experiences that I\u2019ve had, or I couldn\u2019t work out how to explain myself to my believing family. Or, I\u2019ve always been on <\/em>the edge of faith, because, I couldn\u2019t square the circle and you\u2019ve shown me a different way of resolving things. And, I love <\/em>hearing that, because, for many people, it is a weight off their shoulders. To realize that things, they have experienced are real. <\/em>They don\u2019t have to be ashamed of them, because, they don\u2019t fit into the conventional story. And to be told, actually, there are <\/em>heaps, in the old, old stories that validate what you\u2019ve just told me.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

When I\u2019ve had people come to me and say, my experiences tell me I\u2019ve been part of some kind of a hybridization program. I\u2019ve <\/em>never told anyone, except my mum. And I can say, yeah it sounds out there. But that story is ages old. You can find it in every <\/em>culture. You can find it in the Bible. You can find it from the southernmost tip of South Africa, all up the western seaboard of <\/em>Africa, into the Caribbean, Brazil, Philippines, Greece, the Norse cultures, the Celtic culture. They have all talked about what you <\/em>are telling me now. And again, it\u2019s a huge relief for people to think, I\u2019m not crazy. This is real, and humanity has known about this <\/em>for a long, long time. It\u2019s just that it hasn\u2019t been acknowledged and a great taboo has been put on it so that people can\u2019t talk.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And I\u2019ve heard so much since Escaping from Eden was published. People coming to me, sending me e-mails, talking to me <\/em>through Skype. It comes so frequently. Every week. Some weeks, every day I hear from people who had experiences and <\/em>encounters that they haven\u2019t been able to talk about. But, they\u2019re talking to me about it. It\u2019s so frequent, that I now think that <\/em>there would not be a family anywhere, that if they gathered the family. And sat down, and said has any of us ever experienced <\/em>anything we couldn\u2019t explain? Every family would have a story. Many families would have stories that relate to the fact, that we <\/em>are not alone in this universe.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Correct, correct. And, it\u2019s been my understanding \u2013 certainly of the team that I work with, that they follow families through generations.<\/p>\n

Yes, they do. I\u2019ve learned, that I\u2019ve learned that since writing Escaping from Eden \u2013 it\u2019ll be there in the sequel that I\u2019m writing <\/em>on, writing right now. But, I\u2019ve learned that from the people who\u2019ve contacted me. And so, I\u2019ve always learned to ask, did your <\/em>parents experience anything like this? And sometimes they\u2019ll say yes. Sometimes they\u2019ll say I don\u2019t think so. And then a week later <\/em>they\u2019ll say, oh my dad\u2019s finally told me what happened to him when he was 50.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And they realize, yes, family lines are observed. And a lot of the time, the observation is quite benign. Other than people have <\/em>experienced things that they can\u2019t explain, or can\u2019t talk about. Not always, but a lot of the time. And I think this is why it\u2019s so <\/em>important to lift the taboo, because, if parents could tell their children I had this experience, and the child can say, Oh I\u2019ve had <\/em>the same experience. You know, when I have people coming back to me a week later saying, oh my dad\u2019s finally told me \u2013 you <\/em>know often these people who have gone to their parents are in their 60s. And they\u2019ve lived all this time, struggling with this thing <\/em>that happened to them. Not knowing that Dad could tell them something that would reassure them, and make them feel not so <\/em>weird and not so isolated.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Yeah it\u2019s pretty sad, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

It, it can be sad. I\u2019m thrilled when I find other families where \u2013 I was talking to a guy the other day who had an abduction, and hybridization experience. And he didn\u2019t know who to tell, so he told his mom. And his mom was able to say all right, let me tell you some things that happened to me. And the relief that that was for that young man, he\u2019s in his 30s, was enormous. And it is such a strength to them, to be able to compare notes with one another. Because in our society it\u2019s still very hard to know, who can I tell this to, who won\u2019t suggest that I be hospitalized?<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Correct. Correct. And that\u2019s one of the reasons why I\u2019ve always been so open. And one of the reasons why I actually started this podcast, so that those out there would not feel so alone.<\/p>\n

Definitely. It\u2019s so important. And I love the breadth of material that you cover in your podcasts, Marianne, is wonderful. And you know if people are struggling with what, what to watch during this lockdown, they should come to your website. All your podcasts, because, there are so many things you can study there. And again, I reckon you know, if you actually sat a whole family down around your website, there\u2019d be someone saying, Oh look at that one. Because of this experience I had. Or because, of what my friends said some months ago, it relates to that. And, they are all different aspects of opening up the world in which we live and showing us that far more is going on than we acknowledge or talk about. And, it\u2019s a far more exciting and interesting universe than ever we\u2019ve been told.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Absolutely, and we\u2019re living in very exciting times. Very exciting times. I call it the end game. This is where we\u2019re at. We\u2019re at the end game now. The end game of all the secrecy, of all humanity being a slave species. We\u2019re at the end game, humanity \u2013 my star people told me back in the eighties, that humanity had to reach a certain point in their spiritual awakening before they could become part of the greater intergalactic communities. And, we reached that point about hmm 18 months ago. Something like that. There was an energetic shift. A whole shift and I knew that we had reached that point. And from that time on, things escalated.<\/p>\n

I agree. I absolutely agree. I had no awareness of that when I started writing escaping from Eden. And then when I started promoting it and doing interviews people started saying this to me, oh you\u2019ve timed this really well. Let\u2019s say, because, there\u2019s a great waking up going on. And now, I\u2019m thinking that\u2019s true. Because, I\u2019m discovering people in all quarters, of all ages. Who are waking up in a remarkable way to what\u2019s going on, and who we are. And what the hope might be for the future.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And isn\u2019t that exciting!<\/p>\n

It\u2019s very exciting.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s so exciting. So tell us before we finish Paul, and I\u2019m so grateful for your time today. I\u2019ve really, absolutely enjoyed this conversation \u2013 and I was, I was so looking forward to it. What is your upcoming book about?<\/p>\n

Well, the upcoming book follows on from escaping from Eden and just goes into some greater depth regarding the sources of the ancient stories. And then, the credibility of contemporary science. There\u2019s more first-person report, as I\u2019ve had contact with people who are really at the coalface \u2013 in terms of access to materials, physical materials. Access to experiences, and so there\u2019s more of that kind of material in the book. But, at the same time, it\u2019s a gateway book. It\u2019s a book that you can give to anyone, Escaping from Eden\u2019s like this. You can give it to anyone with a zero-interest, or zero belief in this territory, and it would take that reader on a journey. By the end of the book, they\u2019ll say, oh there\u2019s something real here that, I need do business with. And so, the sequel will do the same, but it will also take further everyone who\u2019s read Escaping from Eden.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Oh, I\u2019m really excited! I can\u2019t wait for it to come out. How far away do you think we\u2019re looking at Paul?<\/p>\n

I\u2019m aiming at spring of next year.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Awesome. Well, it\u2019s not that far away.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s not very far away. So keep your eye on my website which is Paul Anthony Wallis dot com<\/a>. Anthony with an h, Wallis. Paul Anthony Wallis dot com. Go to the Paul Wallis channel on YouTube. Go to Fifth Kind dot TV, that\u2019s our website. Or, you can find the Fifth Kind TV on YouTube, and that will keep you up to date with the things we\u2019re looking into. You\u2019ll find out when the new book is ready to be pre-ordered. And, I\u2019m releasing documentaries all the time that share bits and pieces of this material.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

And for my listeners, I will have links to all of these on this episode\u2019s page on our podcast website www.walkingtheshadowlands.com, so you can go and visit their sites from there. So you don\u2019t have to worry about not writing it down. It will all be there available for you. So, thank you so much \u2013 Oh Paul, do you have any other social media? Like are you on Instagram? Are you on Twitter?<\/p>\n

I\u2019m not on Twitter and I need to develop my Insta-page, so I am on Facebook. You could find me there. Paul Anthony Wallace and the website. Paul Anthony Wallis dotcom.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s cool, I\u2019ll link those, and also I\u2019ll put those links on our featured guest page. So visitors to the Web site can find them from there as well as this episodes page. So, thank you so much for your time Paul, I\u2019ve, I\u2019ve just absolutely had a wonderful time with you. And maybe I can get \u2013 when your next book comes out, you can return and for another visit. I\u2019d really like that.<\/p>\n

Oh, Marianne thanks so much for having me on your show today. I\u2019ve really enjoyed the conversation. I love the podcast that you do. And yes absolutely. We must have another conversation.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

I would love to. Thank you so much for that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>

<\/div><\/div>

This episode, for some \u2013 especially for my listeners who may be of the Christian religion, challenging in some respects. There will be many people who will outright dismiss what Paul had to say \u2013 But, at the same time, I feel, that there will be many, many more who will actually go back, study, and look at these religious texts with a totally different perspective. At the very least, Paul\u2019s words will make you think and perhaps question what you have always known as our reality to have been that, in my opinion is not in the least, a bad thing.<\/p>\n

For me, this conversation with Paul was incredibly validating, on a very human level. To have my own personal knowing as taught to me from my Star People friends, verified by a very human source, from a very human perspective \u2013 that was pretty nice to hear. I have never doubted the truth of what was taught to me from them. It has always resonated within my soul as truth, plain and simple.<\/p>\n

These are very exciting times that we are living in. Humanity as a species is on the cusp of true freedom. As a species we have never, ever had freedom, only the scant illusion of choice presented to us, so we are not aware of how deeply we have been controlled. But more and more people are waking to the knowing that all is not as it appears, and that things need to be different. The world needs to be different. We are indeed in the end game and the prospect for humanity emerging from this as an uncontrolled, free species, is becoming brighter and brighter by the day.<\/p>\n

With every single person who at the least, begins to question the status quo. Who begins to question what the world\u2019s \u2018authorities\u2019, our governments, and world or multinational organizations put out for us to absorb and take as being gospel, we are one step closer to true freedom as a developing species. And for you my listener, listening to this episode, it is food for thought is it not?<\/p>\n

Our bumper music for this episode is called Breaking Gravity from Cody Martin, and is available from Soundstripe music licensing.<\/p>\n

My favourite music licensing site and the one I have used for all this season\u2019s episodes. If you are needing some good music for a video or any purpose if you use this coupon \u2018Walk with Me\u2019 You will get at least a 10% discount on their monthly or yearly license fees, which are affordable for small broadcasters. Otherwise, I wouldn\u2019t be able to use them. Great variety of music and easy to find what genre or mood you are looking for. Check them out. www.soundstripe.com \u2013 don\u2019t forget to use the code \u2018Walk with Me\u2019 for your discount.<\/p>\n

If you have any suggestions for topics you might like me to cover in upcoming episodes, then please don\u2019t hesitate to contact me. Or, if any of you have any questions, suggestions, or any comments that you\u2019d like to make, or experiences that you might like to share with myself, or my audience \u2013 or, if you feel you might be a good fit as a guest on my podcast, then just email me at shadowlands@yahoo.com<\/a>. Or, check out the \u2018be a guest\u2019 page on the podcast website.If you enjoy our podcast, then please consider becoming a patron. Just head over to patreon.com\/mcc15<\/a> and sign up now. As a patron, you get early access to the podcast episodes and a special members-only page on the podcast website, that has bits that end up on the digital cutting board. And little extras, like the disembodied voices, that I heard during my conversation with Patti. And you can download, full written transcripts of each episode. And you get my absolute appreciation and gratitude. Patreon.com\/mcc15<\/a><\/p>\n

Check out our FaceBook<\/a> page \u2018Walking the Shadowlands\u201d. Our Instagram<\/a> feed of the same name, and our Twitter<\/a> feed @shadowlands10. TikTok<\/a> under Walking_the_Shadowlands. Like and follow for teasers of our upcoming episodes.<\/p>\n

If you don\u2019t have a smartphone, then you can listen to the episodes from the podcast website www.walkingtheshadowlands.com. For those hearing-impaired, there is a full written transcript of each episode on the website. So you don\u2019t miss out at all. Tell your friends! Tell your family! Tell your workmates about our show! Encourage them to listen, and to subscribe also \u2013 the more the merrier!<\/p>\n<\/div>

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